How do they count the price?

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TinyTim

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#726593 4-Dec-2012 08:48

DonGould:
surfisup1000: A single highrise apartment building with 300 apartments is going to be cheaper to service from an ISP's perspective than 300 single level houses spread across an entire block.

You're not making any sense.

Are you talking about the ISP/RSP or the CAN owner/maintainer?

If you're talking about Chorus specifically, then I don't see why 300 apartments are any less expensive than 300 single level homes. I could see why 300 apartments would in fact be more expensive to maintain and or make moves and changes in.

With respect to CAN maintenance, where are you assuming the costs are?

Just like in a house, the wiring within the building is the building owner's responsibility and therefore doesn't affect the service provider. The service provider's costs that would differ between MDU and house are the distance-dependent costs and the access points costs - lower per customer for MDU/apartment.

TinyTim

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#726596 4-Dec-2012 08:50

Ragnor: Retail minus was a retarded methodology, it's good they are using benchmarking vs other countries to determine the wholesale cost for UBA connections.

Benchmarking is also fraught.

Which other countries are truly comparable with New Zealand?

sbiddle

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#726609 4-Dec-2012 09:11

TinyTim:
Ragnor: Retail minus was a retarded methodology, it's good they are using benchmarking vs other countries to determine the wholesale cost for UBA connections.

Benchmarking is also fraught.

Which other countries are truly comparable with New Zealand?

This is a major issue, particularly when NZ has one of the world's best FTTN networks. The costs of this network were huge, and utilisitation of resources such as ISAM ports are very hard to benchmark against.

There is a big difference comparing the cost of providing a wholesale port in an exchange where linecard configurations can vary significantly.

TinyTim

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#726624 4-Dec-2012 09:35

sbiddle:
TinyTim:
Ragnor: Retail minus was a retarded methodology, it's good they are using benchmarking vs other countries to determine the wholesale cost for UBA connections.

Benchmarking is also fraught.

Which other countries are truly comparable with New Zealand?

This is a major issue, particularly when NZ has one of the world's best FTTN networks. The costs of this network were huge, and utilisitation of resources such as ISAM ports are very hard to benchmark against.

There is a big difference comparing the cost of providing a wholesale port in an exchange where linecard configurations can vary significantly.

Benchmarking doesn't normally look at the characteristics of the network itself - things like architecture, design, vendor etc. This is so that the access seekers don't get rewarded or punished by the design decisions and inefficiencies of the access provider.

That said the access provider could argue that utilisation of resources is beyond their control to a certain extent, and different from the benchmarked countries, and the ComCom may decide to take that into account.

[Disclaimer: I used to be involved with all this regulatory stuff but I aren't any more, and I haven't read any of the ComCom's determinations for a while. I don't know anything about the new Telecommunications Commissioner.]

wongtop

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#726634 4-Dec-2012 10:04

As I understand it the UBA STD only requires Chorus to deliver 32 kbps averaged over 15 minutes. The com com have benchmarked against speed limited 256k services, whereas the FTTN rolled out by Telecom / Chorus achieves an average of 10 Mbps.

Whats to stop Chorus from throttling back the regulated UBA back to 32 kbps (plus a safety margin) as a regulated service (effectively crippling the FTTN network), and then selling an unregulated "full speed" service at what ever the price they think they can get?

spoonboy

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#726637 4-Dec-2012 10:07

If SNAP has 1 customer on VDSL in Gore then they have to have at least 50 mbits of PIR transit from Auckland to Gore.

Sorry, I can't really see how yet another fibre to AU or US would help with this.
As well, I suppose Denmark have to aggregate their traffic as well.
So, the question regarding the price of international internet traffic for ISPs is still open.

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spoonboy

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#726638 4-Dec-2012 10:10

blair003: VDSL2 is up to 50/10 and comparable price. Not unlimited though.

Has anyone actually seen this speed on ADSL2 in NZ? I would be interesting to look at the speedtest proof picture.

sbiddle

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#726639 4-Dec-2012 10:11

wongtop: As I understand it the UBA STD only requires Chorus to deliver 32 kbps averaged over 15 minutes. The com com have benchmarked against speed limited 256k services, whereas the FTTN rolled out by Telecom / Chorus achieves an average of 10 Mbps.

Whats to stop Chorus from throttling back the regulated UBA back to 32 kbps (plus a safety margin) as a regulated service (effectively crippling the FTTN network), and then selling an unregulated "full speed" service at what ever the price they think they can get?

UBA is regulated to 45kbps (used to be 32kbps) but this only occurs with BUBA services.

EUBA services have no handover dimensioning, despite Chorus constantly warning that it's coming before Xmas for several Xmas's now. If Chorus were to actually enforce the regulated requirements and dimension EUBA handover to 45kbps it would now cause massive issues for the industry as a whole.

sbiddle

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#726641 4-Dec-2012 10:12

spoonboy:
blair003: VDSL2 is up to 50/10 and comparable price. Not unlimited though.

Has anyone actually seen this speed on ADSL2 in NZ? I would be interesting to look at the speedtest proof picture.

You can't ge that speed on ADSL2+ since ADSL2+ is only 24Mbps theoretical maximum.

As for VDSL2 50/10 is the norm if you're within a couple of hundred metres of an ISAM.

spoonboy

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#726646 4-Dec-2012 10:28

The service provider's costs that would differ between MDU and house are the distance-dependent costs and the access points costs - lower per customer for MDU/apartment.

I think this would affect only new cables while the majority of the connections use old copper.

TinyTim

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#726653 4-Dec-2012 10:49

spoonboy:
The service provider's costs that would differ between MDU and house are the distance-dependent costs and the access points costs - lower per customer for MDU/apartment.

I think this would affect only new cables while the majority of the connections use old copper.

Regulatory pricing takes into account the original cost or replacement cost of installation.

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spoonboy

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#726656 4-Dec-2012 11:01

sbiddle:
spoonboy:
blair003: VDSL2 is up to 50/10 and comparable price. Not unlimited though.

Has anyone actually seen this speed on ADSL2 in NZ? I would be interesting to look at the speedtest proof picture.

You can't ge that speed on ADSL2+ since ADSL2+ is only 24Mbps theoretical maximum.
As for VDSL2 50/10 is the norm if you're within a couple of hundred metres of an ISAM.

But EUBA is ADSL2+, right? So, VDSL is not a regulated product and not Chorus, apparently.

DonGould

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#727076 4-Dec-2012 21:04

spoonboy: Sorry, I can't really see how yet another fibre to AU or US would help with this.
As well, I suppose Denmark have to aggregate their traffic as well.
So, the question regarding the price of international internet traffic for ISPs is still open.

I personally can't see a business case for a new cable to USA at all. There is already one running from Auckland and four more that will get you there from Sydney (SCCN, AJC, ENDV, PPC1).

A new cable from Auckland to Sydney also doesn't make sense to me. We already have one and you can use the long way around on the SCCN link to HWK back to SYD.

A new cable from Sydney to Nelson does make sense to me though.

If we assume that the South Island needs 100Gb and Wellington also needs 100Gb, that's 200Gb running though the entire North Island just to get to Wellington.

In my mind, common sense suggests that if you drop 500Gb or more, into Nelson then you can free up that 200Gb of southern transit from Auckland to provide more data to everything between Auckland and Wellington.

At the same time as providing more redundancy (and after what we saw with SCCN and Vocus last month clearly we are fools to trust a single cable provider when they engage in unplanned, unauthorised maintenance).

I would have thought a cable would also open up the Wellington and Christchurch data center market place more.

Personally I also wonder if going to Tasmania would make more sense as it's half way between Melb/Adelaide and Sydney meaning you reduce transit costs in both directions and get closer to Asia via Perth.

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DonGould

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#727077 4-Dec-2012 21:07

spoonboy: But EUBA is ADSL2+, right? So, VDSL is not a regulated product and not Chorus, apparently.

Is regulation on VDSL2 actually needed?

Looking at the Chrous sare price, wonder if it's time to buy some. I doubt that John Key is going to let the ComCom take $180 million in sales off the company in one hit. Once that's announced then we watch the share price head back up again?!

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