UFB Pricing

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#801452 18-Apr-2013 11:02

myfullflavour:
robertjpayne: According to several ISP's websites like onefibre or hd national bandwidth is "practically free".

Can someone please point me to where I can sign up for free national bandwidth?

Even peering at APE costs $$ in fees, equipment & layer 2 backhaul charges. And doing that alone doesn't get you into every substantial network (hello Telecom) in NZ.

http://hd.net.nz all their plans have free National Bandwidth.

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#801497 18-Apr-2013 11:52

Haha onefibre and HD? National is cheap but not free and still costs. If I pull up 10gbit of this cheap data I still need to interface it and haul it around my core which is anything but cheap. Whats the router per port cost for 10gbit these days?

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robertjpayne

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#801499 18-Apr-2013 11:55

No where did I ever say that national was "free". But quoting ISPs:

"The cost to deliver bandwidth within New Zealand is close to zero hence why it shouldn't really be taken into consideration."

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#801504 18-Apr-2013 11:58

robertjpayne: No where did I ever say that national was "free". But quoting ISPs:

"The cost to deliver bandwidth within New Zealand is close to zero hence why it shouldn't really be taken into consideration."

Whoever made that statement _WILL_ change their tune as soon as someone decides to really test out that theory. Note that I am assuming a rational business that doesn't want to supply services for less than they cost.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Beccara

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#801506 18-Apr-2013 11:59

Sounds like a company who has bugger all people using it, Try sitting on 100mbit of Nat 24/7 and see how they like it

robertjpayne

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#801512 18-Apr-2013 12:04

Beccara: Sounds like a company who has bugger all people using it, Try sitting on 100mbit of Nat 24/7 and see how they like it

Talkiet:
robertjpayne: No where did I ever say that national was "free". But quoting ISPs:

"The cost to deliver bandwidth within New Zealand is close to zero hence why it shouldn't really be taken into consideration."

Whoever made that statement _WILL_ change their tune as soon as someone decides to really test out that theory. Note that I am assuming a rational business that doesn't want to supply services for less than they cost.

Cheers - N

All ToS agreements will have policies against abuse. Someone utilising 100mbits completely 24/7 will probably fall under that abuse category -- seriously who can utilise that sort of bandwidth constantly all day long day after day.

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#801522 18-Apr-2013 12:21

robertjpayne:
Beccara: Sounds like a company who has bugger all people using it, Try sitting on 100mbit of Nat 24/7 and see how they like it

Talkiet:
robertjpayne: No where did I ever say that national was "free". But quoting ISPs:

"The cost to deliver bandwidth within New Zealand is close to zero hence why it shouldn't really be taken into consideration."

Whoever made that statement _WILL_ change their tune as soon as someone decides to really test out that theory. Note that I am assuming a rational business that doesn't want to supply services for less than they cost.

Cheers - N

All ToS agreements will have policies against abuse. Someone utilising 100mbits completely 24/7 will probably fall under that abuse category -- seriously who can utilise that sort of bandwidth constantly all day long day after day.

You've argued the main point away then!!!!!!!

If the price is "close to zero" and "shouldn't really be taken into consideration"... Then WTF is a TOS doing placing constraints on its use then? That in itself is taking it into consideration!

As for who can utilise that sort of bandwidth constantly all day long day after day... Well, ISPS for one, and you can bet they don't get national traffic for free... If it was genuinely free with no limits I have a couple of valid legit business plans I think would take off... But it's simply not free.

It's often reasonably cheap though, but many people that don't understand the total cost of running such a network can be fooled into thinking it's nearly free and you get quotes like the one above that only serve to give unreasonable expectations to many.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Beccara

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#801525 18-Apr-2013 12:23

Talkiet:
robertjpayne:
Beccara: Sounds like a company who has bugger all people using it, Try sitting on 100mbit of Nat 24/7 and see how they like it

Talkiet:
robertjpayne: No where did I ever say that national was "free". But quoting ISPs:

"The cost to deliver bandwidth within New Zealand is close to zero hence why it shouldn't really be taken into consideration."

Whoever made that statement _WILL_ change their tune as soon as someone decides to really test out that theory. Note that I am assuming a rational business that doesn't want to supply services for less than they cost.

Cheers - N

All ToS agreements will have policies against abuse. Someone utilising 100mbits completely 24/7 will probably fall under that abuse category -- seriously who can utilise that sort of bandwidth constantly all day long day after day.

You've argued the main point away then!!!!!!!

If the price is "close to zero" and "shouldn't really be taken into consideration"... Then WTF is a TOS doing placing constraints on its use then? That in itself is taking it into consideration!

As for who can utilise that sort of bandwidth constantly all day long day after day... Well, ISPS for one, and you can bet they don't get national traffic for free... If it was genuinely free with no limits I have a couple of valid legit business plans I think would take off... But it's simply not free.

It's often reasonably cheap though, but many people that don't understand the total cost of running such a network can be fooled into thinking it's nearly free and you get quotes like the one above that only serve to give unreasonable expectations to many.

Cheers - N

Hit the nail on the head much more eloquently than I could

Publius

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#801713 18-Apr-2013 15:21

I don't think there's any reason for free national traffic as its open to abuse, but techie ISPs should really discount national traffic. Maybe charge it at 1/5th of the rate, ie, 50BG plan = 250GB national traffic equivalent.

This is why Amazon (data services) are awesome, they charge you more where their costs are more, i'd like to see more ISPs targeting the techies/businesses doing the same.

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#801763 18-Apr-2013 16:24

Publius: I don't think there's any reason for free national traffic as its open to abuse, but techie ISPs should really discount national traffic. Maybe charge it at 1/5th of the rate, ie, 50BG plan = 250GB national traffic equivalent.

This is why Amazon (data services) are awesome, they charge you more where their costs are more, i'd like to see more ISPs targeting the techies/businesses doing the same.

Exactly. Any resource provided for "free" will be abused because people don't have to pay for it.

Whatifthespacekeyhadneverbeeninvented?

surfisup1000

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#801772 18-Apr-2013 16:48

DarthKermit:
Exactly. Any resource provided for "free" will be abused because people don't have to pay for it.

Yes, I'll load up the nz herald website and keep hitting f5 just cos it's free.

But seriously, this is fixed vs variable costs. The variable cost of sending data is extremely low since the network is in place and really the only variable cost is power to keep equipment running and maintenance perhaps.

But, the fixed cost of maintaining a nationwide network is very high.

So, you need to pay those fix costs in some way that makes sense - - and , allocating it according to subscriber usage seems fair.

I don't think ISP's necessarily make killer profits and they are reasonably efficient operations so possibly pricing is not unfair.

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Talkiet

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#801777 18-Apr-2013 17:01

surfisup1000:
DarthKermit:
Exactly. Any resource provided for "free" will be abused because people don't have to pay for it.

Yes, I'll load up the nz herald website and keep hitting f5 just cos it's free.

But seriously, this is fixed vs variable costs. The variable cost of sending data is extremely low since the network is in place and really the only variable cost is power to keep equipment running and maintenance perhaps.

But, the fixed cost of maintaining a nationwide network is very high.

So, you need to pay those fix costs in some way that makes sense - - and , allocating it according to subscriber usage seems fair.

I don't think ISP's necessarily make killer profits and they are reasonably efficient operations so possibly pricing is not unfair.

There is a cost.

Your time. There's a natural limit on how much interactive browsing someone can do, but that limit doesn't apply to (for example) downloading every torrent of every Linux ISO ever.

And power and maintenance are two things. What if, however, the level of traffic that a company received no revenue for rose to such a level that they had to invest in additional fibres and dozens of 10G interfaces in routers all up and down the country? What if they ran out of fibre and had to lay hundreds of KM of it - All because the "free" national data was being so heavily used?

"Free" is a special case and all rational behaviour breaks down at free. If you haven't seen aggregate usage of large customer bases on flat rate plans then you're not qualified to contest this.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

mercutio

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#801785 18-Apr-2013 17:26

myfullflavour:
robertjpayne: According to several ISP's websites like onefibre or hd national bandwidth is "practically free".

Can someone please point me to where I can sign up for free national bandwidth?

Even peering at APE costs $$ in fees, equipment & layer 2 backhaul charges. And doing that alone doesn't get you into every substantial network (hello Telecom) in NZ.

so class telecom as international, and send the traffic via australia. they already host their email in australia, so fair's fair.

mercutio

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#801786 18-Apr-2013 17:28

surfisup1000:
DarthKermit:
Exactly. Any resource provided for "free" will be abused because people don't have to pay for it.

Yes, I'll load up the nz herald website and keep hitting f5 just cos it's free.

But seriously, this is fixed vs variable costs. The variable cost of sending data is extremely low since the network is in place and really the only variable cost is power to keep equipment running and maintenance perhaps.

But, the fixed cost of maintaining a nationwide network is very high.

So, you need to pay those fix costs in some way that makes sense - - and , allocating it according to subscriber usage seems fair.

I don't think ISP's necessarily make killer profits and they are reasonably efficient operations so possibly pricing is not unfair.

nzherald is sending most of their traffic via a telstraclear link, which like telecom doesn't peer with isp's (other than each other)

mercutio

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#801788 18-Apr-2013 17:29

Talkiet:
surfisup1000:
DarthKermit:
Exactly. Any resource provided for "free" will be abused because people don't have to pay for it.

Yes, I'll load up the nz herald website and keep hitting f5 just cos it's free.

But seriously, this is fixed vs variable costs. The variable cost of sending data is extremely low since the network is in place and really the only variable cost is power to keep equipment running and maintenance perhaps.

But, the fixed cost of maintaining a nationwide network is very high.

So, you need to pay those fix costs in some way that makes sense - - and , allocating it according to subscriber usage seems fair.

I don't think ISP's necessarily make killer profits and they are reasonably efficient operations so possibly pricing is not unfair.

There is a cost.

Your time. There's a natural limit on how much interactive browsing someone can do, but that limit doesn't apply to (for example) downloading every torrent of every Linux ISO ever.

And power and maintenance are two things. What if, however, the level of traffic that a company received no revenue for rose to such a level that they had to invest in additional fibres and dozens of 10G interfaces in routers all up and down the country? What if they ran out of fibre and had to lay hundreds of KM of it - All because the "free" national data was being so heavily used?

"Free" is a special case and all rational behaviour breaks down at free. If you haven't seen aggregate usage of large customer bases on flat rate plans then you're not qualified to contest this.

Cheers - N

*cough* reminds me of adsl and the 0867 debacle ... telecom were hitting overloading issues apparently so they wanted to charge to call your isp. i seem to remember something like you got 20 hours of calling, then it was going to cost heaps? but it struck lots of fud into the somewhat growing internet market in nz...

and i way you could say that ufb is bad for isp's because of the reasons given. suddenly isp's have to put 10 gigabit links up and down the country. they need a handover in every region, which pretty much means they need to buy or wholesale fibre nationwide. or risk turning away customers in certain areas.

and then on top of that, the cost of ufb is higher than adsl, unless one goes naked, which pushes people into voip prematurely when i'm not aware of any compact solutions with backup power etc being done.

so phone reliablity goes down. people rely on cellphones more, more cancer, radiowaves etc. and people just get used to the idea that phone calls might get disconnected randomly.

that said, back before voip i used to sometimes find phone calls getting randomly disconnected late at night.

anyway, the thing about needing to invest heavily in infrastructure is complicated, either there can be "cheap" investment in high bandwidth in cheap gear. or expensive investment in low bandwidth in expensive gear, or even more expensive investment in high bandwidth on expensive gaer.

is it better to have gigabit nationwide with qos/prioritisation, or 10 gigabit nationwide without qos/prioritisation?

it seems the conventional idea at the moment is to move to dark fibre, and remove the middle man, and reduce the cost of 10 gigabit, .. leaving only to use equipment that can take 10 gigabit... where providers in nz already are shifting from 1 gigabit... (or 1 gigabit bonded, multiple links etc)

so with all this investment, and 10 gigabit links across the country, if you have 100,000 users per 10 gigabit connection say, you're looking at something you're looking at 100,000 bits per user. .. and so if they all stream video from one location you're screwed...

but if that becomes an issue, then you can implement something local to dish out common video... (and maybe look at getting another 10 gigabit handover link for ufb)

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