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mdf

mdf

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#142544 16-Mar-2014 20:49
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I'm trying to help my mum sort out poor quality voice calls (intermittent static) and ADSL broadband (slow with frequent disconnects).

The house is a rats nest of daisy chained telephone wires that have spread their tendrils throughout the wall cavities over the years. Aha, I think, she needs a master splitter here. Her usual electrician was doing some (electricity) wiring in her kitchen and said yeah, no problem, he could put a master splitter in. Following the master splitter install, the problems get worse. I check and re-check her router and wifi range extender. No joy. I replace her router and wifi range extender. No joy. Phone the electrician to come back and double check he did everything right. He says, yeah, sure, no worries, its all fine. Problem must be somewhere else. Phone her ISP (Vodafone - who were very helpful) who arrange a Chorus tech to come check things.

 

Unfortunately I don't live there and so didn't speak to Mr Chorus, so I only got this second-hand, but essentially Mr Chorus says the electrician made an [expletive] mess of things. Again, this is all second hand, but Mr Chorus says the electrician needs to install an external box on the house and leaves a note saying "2 ports are 2 wires only. No twist joints" (not sure whether this is a description of the problem with the existing wiring or a description of what the new wiring should be like).

The electrician, having been informed of Mr Chorus' views, now wants to run a very long new cable. Mum lives on a back section, the telephone wires come to a pole in her driveway, then underground about 40-odd meters to the house. Electrician wants a new cable between the pole and the house. The new cable will then presumably go into the existing (new) master splitter. There is no way Mum is allowing her driveway to be dug up, so this will likely go in a conduit along a handy fence.

I appreciate that this probably isn't nearly enough information to diagnose the actual problem, much less allow recommendations of a solution, but I'm hoping to get a bit more info to try and work out whether the electrician's solution is actually the right one. Does the reference to the "2 ports 2 wires" thing mean anything to anyone? 

I'm keen to avoid throwing good money after bad. The electrician has offered to try and sort out the problem at less than his market rate, but if he really doesn't know what he's doing, I might just get someone else to sort it out and take the hit.

Finally, as an aside, Mum lives in Miramar (Wellington). Apparently UFB is coming to her address at some stage in the early Wellington roll out (originally, that was later this year but Chorus' website seems to have slipped the dates). If we end up running a new cable conduit, should I be putting a fibre cable in that too? What are the obligations to run fibre to the premises for a house 40-50 meters off the road?

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sbiddle
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  #1006873 16-Mar-2014 20:53
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The leadin cable is owned by Chorus. It's not your job to rewire this.


mdf

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  #1006900 16-Mar-2014 21:21
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Thanks. Apologies if this is an obvious question, but the lead-in cable goes from the street to the pole (about half-way down the driveway), or from the street to the house?

PoHq
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  #1006902 16-Mar-2014 21:22
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Anything outside the house belongs to Chorus, you or the electrician can't just go making changes unfortunately. If there is a genuine noisy line and or frequent DSL dropouts you need to call your ISP again to arrange another visit. I'm completely guessing here but it sounds like the Chorus tech who visited tested the network OK and the fault if there is one lies inside the house. If there is no maintenance and wiring cover on the house the tech doesn't need to go any further as his job is ONLY to prove the Chorus network OK. The tech is also within his rights not to repair somebody else's incorrect splitter installation.

With regards to the tech's comment "2 ports are 2 wires only" I'd say the electrician has used 2 port connectors but tried to get more than 2 wires in. He needed the 3 port connectors. The fact that he needed 3 port connectors shows he was using an older style master splitter. The current ones have 3 pairs of wires.

Like I say though this is all guess work, I'd advise 2 things, one, not to touch the Chorus owned service lead coming into your house and 2, call your ISP and be there yourself when the tech comes again.

Hope that helps and you get it resolved. Cheers.





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  #1006922 16-Mar-2014 21:32
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I would get somebody in to fix the wiring. Chorus would probably do this for $199 as part of a master filter install. It really sounds like the electrician has absolutely no idea what they're doing.


InstallerUFB
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  #1006932 16-Mar-2014 21:45
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mdf: <snip> Mr Chorus says the electrician made an [expletive] mess of things. Again, this is all second hand, but Mr Chorus says the electrician needs to install an external box on the house and leaves a note saying "2 ports are 2 wires only. No twist joints" (not sure whether this is a description of the problem with the existing wiring or a description of what the new wiring should be like).


The electrician must have taken more than one circuit and twisted the pairs together then tried to crimp them into a 2 port - which will end up with more HR DISs (High Resistance Disconnections) which cause 'Snaps, Crackles and Pops' on the voice circuit and drop outs on the DSL - 2 ports = 2 wires - if you need to daisy chain star wire connections you use 3 ports multipul times untill all the circuits are connected
 
mdf:The electrician, having been informed of Mr Chorus' views, now wants to run a very long new cable. Mum lives on a back section, the telephone wires come to a pole in her driveway, then underground about 40-odd meters to the house. Electrician wants a new cable between the pole and the house. The new cable will then presumably go into the existing (new) master splitter. There is no way Mum is allowing her driveway to be dug up, so this will likely go in a conduit along a handy fence.


As has already been said this cable is chorus - so dont touch

mdf: I appreciate that this probably isn't nearly enough information to diagnose the actual problem, much less allow recommendations of a solution, but I'm hoping to get a bit more info to try and work out whether the electrician's solution is actually the right one. Does the reference to the "2 ports 2 wires" thing mean anything to anyone? 

 See above


mdf: Finally, as an aside, Mum lives in Miramar (Wellington). Apparently UFB is coming to her address at some stage in the early Wellington roll out (originally, that was later this year but Chorus' website seems to have slipped the dates). If we end up running a new cable conduit, should I be putting a fibre cable in that too? What are the obligations to run fibre to the premises for a house 40-50 meters off the road?


Again - if you do decide to replace the conduit (btw it should be buried and not hung on on fences) - then again chorus will run the fibre cable or microducting inside it when they install if you run a fibre cable then it will end up as only a draw wire and a complete waste of money 

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  #1006977 17-Mar-2014 00:03
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PoHq: Anything outside the house belongs to Chorus, you or the electrician can't just go making changes unfortunately. If there is a genuine noisy line and or frequent DSL dropouts you need to call your ISP again to arrange another visit. I'm completely guessing here but it sounds like the Chorus tech who visited tested the network OK and the fault if there is one lies inside the house. If there is no maintenance and wiring cover on the house the tech doesn't need to go any further as his job is ONLY to prove the Chorus network OK. The tech is also within his rights not to repair somebody else's incorrect splitter installation.

If the Chorus guy has already checked their network then theres nothing badly wrong with the leadin cable, ie nothing worth fixing or he would have fixed it -- thats his job not the sparkie's.

Assuming the splitter has been fixed, there is no point calling back the ISP to send Chorus out to look at the same stuff again. He didn't need to fix the splitter either, but may have done just to get the broadband working properly.

There's probably other wiring in the house that needs to be fixed to improve the phone noise, but not this sparkie. He has apparently made a dogs breakfast of the internal house wiring already and now wants to fix the Chorus network.

PoHq: With regards to the tech's comment "2 ports are 2 wires only" I'd say the electrician has used 2 port connectors but tried to get more than 2 wires in. He needed the 3 port connectors. The fact that he needed 3 port connectors shows he was using an older style master splitter. The current ones have 3 pairs of wires.

I agree its ambiguous to anyone who doesn't fix phone 2wire jacks for a living. He probably meant that the jacks that have a "2" on the front must be connected to a single phone line ie 2 wires. That means the landline is on a single pair of wires going into the jack (one wire on each side) and other cables can connect out to the next jack (again one wire each side). You never connect more than 1 pair in the same cable to this type of jack because all the wires each side are joined together. If there are old master/slave jacks (3 wire) in the house as well, they work differently.

The twisting comment I suspect is about wire joins on the splitter being just twisted together instead of properly crimped, and could cause more of those problems. No excuse for this, its not hard to do a proper crimp.





Time to find a new industry!


webwat
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  #1006978 17-Mar-2014 00:10
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Not sure why sparkie was supposed to install an external box, he was simply maintaining existing wiring. Presumably he has changed out the original master jackpoint to a newer 2wire jack, so perhaps in this situation the demarcation needs to move to an outside box. I would say its the Chorus guy's problem since Telecom connected the original demarc however they wanted to do it back in the day and needs Chorus involved to move the leadin cable.




Time to find a new industry!




mercutio
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  #1007007 17-Mar-2014 07:01
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I had a problem kind of like this without master filter, and Chorus changing the pair between the house and cabinet improved it, but didn't fix it - but at least phone calls in usually worked, and ADSL usually stayed connected (and when it did reconnect it took about 45 seconds) when prior often the phone would be so bad it couldn't receive or make phone calls, and the ADSL would sometimes take ages to sync, and would disconnect frequently.

Curiously sync speed went down slightly (by about a megabit) when changing pairs though, but it was still around 20 megaibt, so didn't really bother me.  There's pairs to that grey box on the street, then from the grey box to the cabinet.  At least the pair was changed to the grey box from what I could tell, not sure if the one to cabinet was changed too.  There was a box on the outside of the house.


Cbfd
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  #1007019 17-Mar-2014 08:39
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Why sparkies oulsnt be allowed to do work tbh leave it to mr chorus we get alot of faults like this

fahrenheit
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  #1007031 17-Mar-2014 09:13
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So reading this thread it seems that the consensus is that self-installation of a master splitter is actually not allowed. This seems a little confusing since this advice is often given in these forums minus such a caveat. How does a freelancer like Coffeebaron get around it? If he's not a Chorus contractor and he's installing a splitter on the lead-in, then how is that any different to the homeowner or their sparky?

Or is this just an unenforced gray-area and only costs the homeowner a little bit of money and pride if they make a hash of it?
I did my own master splitter install and the Chorus tech okay'd it when I switched over to VDSL2. I never had the notion that I was technically (or legally) in the wrong.

mercutio
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  #1007038 17-Mar-2014 09:26
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fahrenheit: So reading this thread it seems that the consensus is that self-installation of a master splitter is actually not allowed. This seems a little confusing since this advice is often given in these forums minus such a caveat. How does a freelancer like Coffeebaron get around it? If he's not a Chorus contractor and he's installing a splitter on the lead-in, then how is that any different to the homeowner or their sparky?

Or is this just an unenforced gray-area and only costs the homeowner a little bit of money and pride if they make a hash of it?
I did my own master splitter install and the Chorus tech okay'd it when I switched over to VDSL2. I never had the notion that I was technically (or legally) in the wrong.


internal wiring is allowed, it's making changes to the lead-in cable between house and chorus network.


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  #1007048 17-Mar-2014 09:30
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You can install a master splitter yourself, you just cant touch anything before the ETP.

It does sound here like the electrician doesn't really know what he is doing (he is an electrician after all, not a telecoms tech - I wouldn't ask my sparky to rewire my phones, just like I wouldn't ask a Chorus tech to wire in a heated towel rail).

Sounds like everything after the ETP needs redoing, before you can get on to Chorus about replacing the lead-in.

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  #1007052 17-Mar-2014 09:33
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Ooh, another (slightly OT) question, but I know people who know this stuff will be viewing this thread - If you install a splitter at the ETP, can you use a single run of Cat5/6 to run the split pairs down? In other words, connect the DSL pair to (say) the orange pair in the cable and the voice pair to the blue pair in the same cable? I imagine it's fine, but just checking.

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  #1007055 17-Mar-2014 09:39
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trig42: Ooh, another (slightly OT) question, but I know people who know this stuff will be viewing this thread - If you install a splitter at the ETP, can you use a single run of Cat5/6 to run the split pairs down? In other words, connect the DSL pair to (say) the orange pair in the cable and the voice pair to the blue pair in the same cable? I imagine it's fine, but just checking.

Yes.
I usually put DSL on the green pair and POTS on the blue pair. Matches colour coding of splitter.





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fahrenheit
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  #1007062 17-Mar-2014 09:42
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trig42: You can install a master splitter yourself, you just cant touch anything before the ETP.


Thanks for clearing that up.

My folks house is just over ten years old and the phone jacks are daisy chained. All 10 of them.
Wish I'd been around when the place was being built.

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