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407 posts

Ultimate Geek
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Topic # 22452 28-May-2008 20:31
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Hi guys,

I think that it would be cool to have something similar to ISPMap.co.nz but with a whole lot more of extensive information (and more recent Wink)

Things like who connects at the APE,WIX and how connections are routed around NZ..


Any Ideas?

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4025 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 133971 28-May-2008 20:44
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Good idea, i think even an updated version would be nice.

I wonder if this is still relevant even if its a year old.
Shows all the companys using asianetcom which is known for high latency.

Gogo reach & telstraclear. Awesome latency compared to ANC.



407 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 133973 28-May-2008 20:57
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Yea, Would be really keen to give this a shot.

A wiki-style page would be good so everyone can add/remove information...

Any suggestions on what we could use??

I'm not all that great at coding but if something already exists that would be cool

2483 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 133984 28-May-2008 21:42
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Maybe something like the NZ Connections Wiki? (Click on my signature mini-banner)

I'm interested in how to get such information - like route servers and peering.




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1818 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 134007 28-May-2008 22:59
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Open Source coming to New Zealands Broadband map policy.

might be of interest as the two should be integrated.

637 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 134008 28-May-2008 23:00
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Why?

Most ISPs (and certainly transit providers and the big telcos) regard this information as a trade secret, and won't disclose it. While a certain amount can be gleaned from public information (i.e. route servers, RPSL databases, and mass traceroutes), it's subjective and is not indicative of relationships or agreements. Not to mention that the information goes stale quickly.

What does a site like this really gain you?  Anything collaborative is almost certainly going to contain more inaccuracies and misinformation than it provides in usefulness.

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  Reply # 134009 28-May-2008 23:08
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I think there are some changes happening. 
Quote TUANZ's reported.
Broadband investment fund - more information
Posted yesterday @ 8:29 p.m. by Ernie
The government's policy on broadband investment was announced in the Budget last Thursday and covered in previous blog postings.

On Thursday of this week, 29 May, Minister Cunliffe will be giving more details of the Fund as part of the launch of the new Digital Development Council.

The Minister has this afternoon requested that TUANZ invite our members to take part in this 30-45 minute event, in Wellington at 11.45am Thursday, Details attached. RSVPs are requested, to the address given, but are not essential.
It looks like some of the infomation is being opened up a bit, will see what tomorrow brings.
The open broadband map isounds like it's going to be an intersting project is seeing what new networks are going in or in already.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 134013 28-May-2008 23:21
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hellonearthisman: It looks like some of the infomation is being opened up a bit, will see what tomorrow brings.
The open broadband map isounds like it's going to be an intersting project is seeing what new networks are going in or in already.

I don't see how the digital development council has anything whatsoever to do with topology information of the NZ Internet.

The broadband map is about demand and overlays where networks are present - it has nothing to do with topology.

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  Reply # 134016 28-May-2008 23:32
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topology? do you mean a map like google?

http://www.broadbandmap.govt.nz/

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 134017 28-May-2008 23:52
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hellonearthisman: topology? do you mean a map like google?

Google Maps is an example of topography.

helloneearthisman: http://www.broadbandmap.govt.nz/

This is also an example of topography, with some network topology overlaid on top of it.

It still has nothing to do with the question - which is an updated version of ispmap.co.nz (which in itself was a bad idea) - and the network topology that goes with it.

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  Reply # 134018 28-May-2008 23:57
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Your negative, can you see the creative vision at to what the broadband map is about and what they are trying todo with the map?
Isn't it the point for these two to overlay on each other? Topology and topography. And it asked for "something similar"

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 134019 29-May-2008 00:07
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hellonearthisman: Your negative, can you see the creative vision at to what the broadband map is about and what they are trying todo with the map?

I prefer to be realistic, and the only thing I find more annoying than no information is incorrect information - which any 3rd party "informational" site will be, due to the previously mentioned secrecy.
hellonearthisman: Isn't it the point for these two to overlay on each other? Topology and topography. And it asked for "something similar"

Yes.  Except that the broadband map is only useful as a demand aggregator.  It is not useful for the original poster's question.

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  Reply # 134024 29-May-2008 02:00
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I understand that there are some security issues with the construction of a
mashup map.

Locations are sensitive and the business has it's routing issues.

But I am sure the major peering exchanges would be mapped, but not disclosed.

Was it manhinli  that had a thread about a user speed test. (was there a final report on that?)
Could that test be traced to show ip route/path(?) and mapped to towns like a mashup.
The isp's wont provide what they use, but they don't hide it either.



407 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 134041 29-May-2008 07:28
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I dont see why it is a bad idea? Just something that shows possibly how (for example) trademe is connected to each ISP either through peering or the Global Gateway. Not hard to find out using a traceroute.

Also a cool thing would be which ISP's peer at the APE and WIX. Just an inhanced version of ISPMap and user-editable.

I just need to find a software suggestion to use. (Already have the hosting from a PM I recieved)

Cheers
Chris

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 134146 29-May-2008 13:25
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chrisjunkie: I dont see why it is a bad idea? Just something that shows possibly how (for example) trademe is connected to each ISP either through peering or the Global Gateway. Not hard to find out using a traceroute.

Unless you are sititng at each ISP's router (with CLI access), you cannot determine this reliably.  You can only determine it at a point in time, and in an asymmetric view.  Thus any information collected is circumstantial and unreliable - which in my opinion (and you are quite entitled to yours) makes it worthless.

FWIW, there is no such thing as "the Global Gateway".  Global Gateway is a Telecom service, and there is no "the" in the name.
chrisjunkie: Also a cool thing would be which ISP's peer at the APE and WIX. Just an inhanced version of ISPMap and user-editable.

You can find which ISPs are present at the IXs from the IX websites themselves:

www.nzix.net
www.ape.net.nz
www.wix.net.nz


Of course, just that the ISP is present does not mean or make any guarantees that any traffic is routed over that IX.  For instance, both Telecom and TelstraClear are present at the IXs but may not use them for many or any paths.  Additionally, many ISPs have a habit of their Auckland POPs only using APE and not WIX, and their Wellington POPs using WIX and not APE in order to avoid having to carry bits nationally.



To make it clear:

You are quite entitled to do whatever you want.  However, I sound (and am) negative because the idea is not going to provide accurate or useful information.  All it does is spread circumstantial and unreliable information, which actually makes lives harder for engineering and operations teams in ISPs.  A little bit of knowledge is quite dangerous, and will often result in people conclusively stating a problem is X, when it's not - which makes engineers and operators less likely to want to help, or it makes troubleshooting and resolving the problem harder because you spend an incredible amount of time re-educating people.

I didn't think ispmap was a good idea then, and I don't think this is a good idea now.

My 2c.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 134193 29-May-2008 16:14
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I think the results from Trace routes could provide some information of use to the general public.
Accurate or useful information, might be the loss but the basic visualisation of the network is worth it
Still you points are good ones PenultimateHop,  and I have a hankie in-case it all ends in tears.

There is no simple program for user 'to log trace and send to an email address' is there?

I hope the new broadband map will have the functionality to mashup an ispmap layer, only be it a basic visualisation.

I got an email about the beta of the broadband map.
    * Data will be presented in a tabular as well as map based format for accessibility
    * Coverage areas of networks will be displayed, this includes Vodafone, Telecom, Kordia, CityLink, Network Tasman, Vector, Velocity, TelstraClear to name a few.
    * You will have the ability to manage your own set of demand points
    * You'll have the choice of a SOAP or RESTful interface to the database API


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