Locating the demarc

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CitizenErased

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#228584 13-Jan-2018 10:12

I'm managing a server migration project for a client and part of this project involves switching them to a new ISP and hosted VoIP solution (also switching from ADSL to VDSL - fibre not available).

A Chorus tech showed up at the client's premises on Thursday (I wasn't there) and the comment left on the work order was "customer needs to find main internal demarc. card left for customer to rebook once demarc has been located. Staging order back."

I have no idea where the demarc is located and neither does the client. I plan on getting an electrician in to trace the existing line back from the ADSL jack point. Is that the best course of action?

On a related note, I asked the new ISP why they couldn't just churn the existing ADSL connection and upgrade it to VDSL. They came back to me and said an address check on the Chorus system shows there are no existing services that can be churned at this address. Said it may be because the services were originally provided by Clear Communications (now Vodafone) and the number was then ported to Spark? I thought Chorus was the wholesaler for all copper lines in NZ, but obviously not? So we have to get a new line for VDSL and then cancel the existing ADSL line. Who else wholesales copper lines in NZ and why can't you churn services between them? It seems anti-competitive.

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#1938001 13-Jan-2018 10:57

Haha if the customer has to find the demarc they might as well run the jumpers in the cabinet/exchange too! Lazy dam technicians.

But you can also churn your ads with no problem, assuming it is of course a chorus copper connection and not old telstraclear copper or something. Contact the current ISP and request the ASID of the current connection. Give the ASID to the new isp and they should be able to have churned pretty much the following day.

But it's the upgrading to vdsl that might be the issue there. If down time is an issue then it will be much safer to to get a second connection done. Vdsl upgrades are relatively predictable, but the official word is that it will happen between either 8-12 or 12-5.

Edit: and no you shouldn't have to get a sparky to locate the demarc. It is literally the chorus techs job. The only flexibility I would give to that is if they found the feeder cables were going in to a newly built wall and the demarc has been covered up. Get your isp to tell chorus to stop being lazy pricks and get it sorted.

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CitizenErased

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#1938025 13-Jan-2018 11:25

Thanks for that. I'll follow up on Monday.

Because an address check in the Chorus system shows no existing services, I assume it must be TelstraClear copper. The organisation has been there for decades though (before Clear Communications existed), so it does seems odd.

I recently had my home ADSL connection upgraded to VDSL and there was only a brief outage. They could probably live with that.

hio77

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#1938054 13-Jan-2018 12:19

Sounds to me, it's likely not on wholesale gear.

By no means is it the customers job to find the demarc, chorus should have records of this.

Sounds to me like the tech didnt want to waste his time looking around for it and put it in the too hard basket.

Chorus techs carry all the gear to trace a pair.

It is possible they ran this as a new install if the non-wholesale connection wasn't dropped - these can always be a bit of a pain.

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sparkz25

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#1938089 13-Jan-2018 13:30

chevrolux: Haha if the customer has to find the demarc they might as well run the jumpers in the cabinet/exchange too! Lazy dam technicians.

But you can also churn your ads with no problem, assuming it is of course a chorus copper connection and not old telstraclear copper or something. Contact the current ISP and request the ASID of the current connection. Give the ASID to the new isp and they should be able to have churned pretty much the following day.

But it's the upgrading to vdsl that might be the issue there. If down time is an issue then it will be much safer to to get a second connection done. Vdsl upgrades are relatively predictable, but the official word is that it will happen between either 8-12 or 12-5.

Edit: and no you shouldn't have to get a sparky to locate the demarc. It is literally the chorus techs job. The only flexibility I would give to that is if they found the feeder cables were going in to a newly built wall and the demarc has been covered up. Get your isp to tell chorus to stop being lazy pricks and get it sorted.

i second this, and keep at them (chorus) they are just being lazy.

dont take no for an answer from these guys either, some times they need to be told how to do their job and how to patch a cable as they cant seem to figure that out.

Chorus just doesn't do life in general, life is to hard for chorus at the best of times

raytaylor

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#1938742 14-Jan-2018 20:14

Clear did run its own reticulation before unbundling around some CBD areas. I know of a couple of motels in Napier that are locked into vodafone until UFB comes past, unless they pay for a new chorus connection to be dug in from the road.

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hio77

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#1938745 14-Jan-2018 20:18

sparkz25:

i second this, and keep at them (chorus) they are just being lazy.

dont take no for an answer from these guys either, some times they need to be told how to do their job and how to patch a cable as they cant seem to figure that out.

Chorus just doesn't do life in general, life is to hard for chorus at the best of times

all comes back to the whole... Chorus need to get rid of the dumb contract their contractors are on so they can actually do the work that is required.

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CitizenErased

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#1938750 14-Jan-2018 20:31

raytaylor:

Clear did run its own reticulation before unbundling around some CBD areas. I know of a couple of motels in Napier that are locked into vodafone until UFB comes past, unless they pay for a new chorus connection to be dug in from the road.

In this case it's rural, just outside Christchurch. That's why I'm surprised the address doesn't show up in the Chorus system.

rscole86

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#1938756 14-Jan-2018 20:50

The developer could still have chosen to use TCL as the only provider at the time. A lot of assumptions have been made, we could also make an assumption that the demarc has even been covered by any work done at the address by builders etc. If you are local it may pay for you to check out the building yourself before paying for a third party to do it.

CitizenErased

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#1938760 14-Jan-2018 20:53

rscole86:

The developer could still have chosen to use TCL as the only provider at the time. A lot of assumptions have been made, we could also make an assumption that the demarc has even been covered by any work done at the address by builders etc. If you are local it may pay for you to check out the building yourself before paying for a third party to do it.

I'll find out more tomorrow, but I'd guess this building was constructed in the 1960s. It's an old brick building that's all original. Definitely no TCL around then.

toejam316

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#1938763 14-Jan-2018 21:13

Much more likely is that the technician is a coded worker (paid per task, fixed rate), and decided that the job is going to take too much time. Two options - talk to the ISP about escalating this with their Chorus contacts, or find the demarc and get your ISP to update the ticket.

The former is technically correct, the latter is probably going to be easier if you have someone familiar with the building.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

chevrolux

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#1938778 14-Jan-2018 21:33

toejam316:
Much more likely is that the technician is a coded worker (paid per task, fixed rate), and decided that the job is going to take too much time. Two options - talk to the ISP about escalating this with their Chorus contacts, or find the demarc and get your ISP to update the ticket.

The former is technically correct, the latter is probably going to be easier if you have someone familiar with the building.

I'm of a firm belief we need to make Chorus' life just as hard as they make ours. Every issue should always be escalated.

OP - you should still contact the original ISP and see.if there is an ASID... Chch has plenty of TCL network but unlikely in a rural area.

hoane

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#1939090 15-Jan-2018 14:20

The building distribution frame should be easily accessible and it location obvious. However not every building is built people thinking about future use and future tenants.

The tenant should have been advised by the building manager where the main water, power and Telco control points are for their tenancy - i.e. the water toby, power switchboard and demarc frame.

If it is a multi-tenanted building built in the 1960's, the Post Office will have installed a building demarcation frame somewhere in the building. It could be in a locked cupboard somewhere, in a cupboard in someone's office, under the stairs etc.

If the building has since had some internal re-fit, a wall could have been built between the entry-point and the frame, so the only person who might know where it is will be the landlord or the building manager.

After having a cursory check to where it could be it is not unreasonable for the tech to ask the customer to locate it and make it accessible (e.g.it might be in a locked cupboard so someone will need to provide the keys).

If you invite a plumber to your house to change a tap washer, and he can't find your water toby (because someone has sealed over it with a concrete footpath), it is not unreasonable for him to abandon the job and ask you to locate the toby and make it accessible before he returns.

chevrolux

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#1939218 15-Jan-2018 17:04

hoane:

The building distribution frame should be easily accessible and it location obvious. However not every building is built people thinking about future use and future tenants.

The tenant should have been advised by the building manager where the main water, power and Telco control points are for their tenancy - i.e. the water toby, power switchboard and demarc frame.

If it is a multi-tenanted building built in the 1960's, the Post Office will have installed a building demarcation frame somewhere in the building. It could be in a locked cupboard somewhere, in a cupboard in someone's office, under the stairs etc.

If the building has since had some internal re-fit, a wall could have been built between the entry-point and the frame, so the only person who might know where it is will be the landlord or the building manager.

After having a cursory check to where it could be it is not unreasonable for the tech to ask the customer to locate it and make it accessible (e.g.it might be in a locked cupboard so someone will need to provide the keys).

If you invite a plumber to your house to change a tap washer, and he can't find your water toby (because someone has sealed over it with a concrete footpath), it is not unreasonable for him to abandon the job and ask you to locate the toby and make it accessible before he returns.

Except this isn't like a plumber coming to a job. It's like the council turning up and saying, "we can't find the toby so you need to find it".

It's their infrastructure so they need to be responsible for it.

I totally agree with what you are saying about a refit being done, but the tech should first have a real proper look around. I have personally done that plenty of times when I was doing provisioning work, this was very common. So firstly it was look in every nook and cranny, in bathrooms/toilets was quite a common one. Then put the tone source on an existing cable and go looking around again. Once it lead me to an underground lead that disappeared in to the ground under a building inside the foundation - on the outside, a brand new exposed aggregate driver where they had concreted over a aluminium pit lid.

I stand by, tech hasn't had a proper look (due to time and being paid a pathetic code) at OP should escalate with ISP.

hio77

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#1939283 15-Jan-2018 18:38

chevrolux:

Except this isn't like a plumber coming to a job. It's like the council turning up and saying, "we can't find the toby so you need to find it".

It's their infrastructure so they need to be responsible for it.

I totally agree with what you are saying about a refit being done, but the tech should first have a real proper look around. I have personally done that plenty of times when I was doing provisioning work, this was very common. So firstly it was look in every nook and cranny, in bathrooms/toilets was quite a common one. Then put the tone source on an existing cable and go looking around again. Once it lead me to an underground lead that disappeared in to the ground under a building inside the foundation - on the outside, a brand new exposed aggregate driver where they had concreted over a aluminium pit lid.

I stand by, tech hasn't had a proper look (due to time and being paid a pathetic code) at OP should escalate with ISP.

I suppose this is where it's worth the ask, @OP what sort of building is this?

If it is a mdu business block, the argument may stand a slight bit but still would expect basic logical checks to be done reading the post doesn't imply this is the case.

Aliken it to a few cases that are notable for me from last year. Where a minor key detail can mean the world of difference in how the situation should be handled.

Customer's with random disconnection/sporadic speed issues, Chorus went out a few times... We go out for a site visit. Customer has a filter plugged into a filter; While mechanically one would say well what's the issue surely it would work like a double plug?

Turns out it seems to affect things enough to kill the DSL still.

We went down the road, picked up a proper double adapter for the customer, installed it... low and behold, months later still 100% stable service - you would think the chorus tech would have noticed this right?

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CitizenErased

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#1939348 15-Jan-2018 20:02

hio77:

I suppose this is where it's worth the ask, @OP what sort of building is this?

It's a single-storey brick building, constructed much like a house of that era. Single tenant. The current organisation has been there since 1981, but it's no use asking anyone who works there anything remotely technical, like where's the demarc?

I'm currently waiting for Spark to call back with the ASID.

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