Meshnet in Auckland, New Zealand

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indileosat

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#1546279 3-May-2016 20:10

BarTender:
No...

@sbiddle means as a provider of Internet services to customers being paid or not you're an IPAP
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2011/0011/latest/DLM2764327.html
So you'll need to comply with the above legislation.

I'm not trying to be unhelpful but I just think that so many factors in NZ (Excellent MBB, Compliance and infrastructure costs) means that in my professional opinion your energy and money is better utilised on other endeavours.

Yes, I understood his meaning after searching IPAP, and reading a bit on it.

The kind of solution that I think I might not need to be IPAP. The reason is I'm not providing Internet.

But, still good to keep that this point in notes. May be useful when the right time comes.

Cheers

deadlyllama

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#1546288 3-May-2016 20:15

sbiddle:

BarTender:

@sbiddle means as a provider of Internet services to customers being paid or not you're an IPAP
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2011/0011/latest/DLM2764327.html
So you'll need to comply with the above legislation.

I'm not trying to be unhelpful but I just think that so many factors in NZ (Excellent MBB, Compliance and infrastructure costs) means that in my professional opinion your energy and money is better utilised on other endeavours.

And depending on exactly what the OP is trying to do (but providing a public service means it's highly likely they'll need to) they'll also need to ensure their network is compliant with all aspects of the TICSA regulations and register with the Police/GCSB.

What happens if you don't check your TICSA compliance/etc or register with the boys in blue? E.g. if you're a small motel... there must be hundreds of them out there.

Dynamic

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#1546336 3-May-2016 21:50

BarTender:

In NZ I would think that Spark has effectively killed any requirements for needing a mesh network 3 fold.

- Skinny Mobile Broadband where you with $55 for 60GB or Wireless Broadband which is $90 for 80GB including the phone line or $85 for Naked MBB.

For some families in my community, that is just too much money to spend on non-essentials.

If you can work out a way to turn the dozens of Spark/Vodafone routers posted out to clients who already have a router and don;t use the new one, you'd have a vast source of cheap hardware!

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Aredwood

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#1546415 3-May-2016 23:54

I don't get it. You said you won't be providing Internet, So what will your network provide if it is not internet access? As for cost, all of the mobile networks provide small amounts of mobile data. Via prepay packs or combos. So even if your budget is only $10 or $20 per month you can still get online. Sure you have to be careful to not waste that data. But as long as you only use it for non video based websites / apps you should be OK. Last time i was in Samoa, I bought 700MB of mobile data, Yet I didn't manage to use it up. Despite lots of web browsing, Facebook, and letting other people tether to my phone.

Also I think that Metrix run a mesh network for their smart meters. As in Auckland at least they seem to have the largest market share of the smart meter market. So if true there is a mesh network application for you. Since smart meters don't use much data. And the other smart meter companies use Vodafone 2G as their backhaul.

The only way I can see it working is if you run a PPP or VPN server. And users then have to create an account, and use those credentials to login to the PPP or VPN server. So if they do anything on the net that they shouldn't. It will be traced back to them. Rather than whatever internet connection that part of the mesh network happens to be piggy backing off. And it will mean just one point to do whatever logging, monitoring ect that the law requires. And make it easier to do a captive portal.

indileosat

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#1546422 4-May-2016 00:51

Aredwood:

I don't get it. You said you won't be providing Internet,

Correct. Because in a Distributed Mesh Network where I'm nothing more than just a node in a Mesh Network, doesn't make sense me providing internet. In a Decentralised Networks may be, but not in distributed one. I don't control anything; nobody controls anything; other than being a Mesh node. What people do to connect themselves from Meshnet to Internet is different thing. There wouldn't be one way but many. Secure and insecure. Depending on how one connects from Meshnet to Internet makes is possible and not possible to monitor their internet activity. So, to eliminate any chances of eavesdropping activity of nodes connecting to internet through peered mesh nodes it has to be modelled/setup the way such connectivity is secure.

That's why I don't see Internet as an exclusive feature to Mesh network. I have other better usecases in mind of Meshnet alone, so I'm working on those.

Aredwood: So what will your network provide if it is not internet access?

Again, it's not my network. It's not anyone specific's network. Not a company's network, not a foundations network, not an organisations network. Just looking for good options around and see if it's possible, how it's possible and what's the best way to go for it. I have half the solution, the other half is needing a working Distributed Mesh network.

I should better get in touch with people who are doing such Distributed Mesh networks already.

Aredwood

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#1546933 5-May-2016 01:29

Problem is that at some point the mesh network will have to interconnect with the internet. Meaning you will need a router at that point. (one that is actually doing routing, and not simply acting as a relay or switch). Whoever has that internet account will carry the can as far as the networking laws. And how will it work as far as DHCP is concerned? Or will it be IPv6 only. So you can use SLAAC? And then say tough luck to any devices that only support IPv4.

I guess the other way of doing it is to not have any connectivity with the internet. But the only thing I could see such a network being used for is sharing copyrighted music and movies. If it is successful, It will be like Napster back in it's heyday.

indileosat

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#1547019 5-May-2016 09:37

Aredwood:

Problem is that at some point the mesh network will have to interconnect with the internet. Meaning you will need a router at that point. (one that is actually doing routing, and not simply acting as a relay or switch). Whoever has that internet account will carry the can as far as the networking laws. And how will it work as far as DHCP is concerned? Or will it be IPv6 only. So you can use SLAAC? And then say tough luck to any devices that only support IPv4.

These are the Mesh network related questions. Some of these are my questions too. Will share when I get some answers :)

Aredwood: I guess the other way of doing it is to not have any connectivity with the internet. But the only thing I could see such a network being used for is sharing copyrighted music and movies. If it is successful, It will be like Napster back in it's heyday.

That's interesting mate! Is that really the ONLY thing people do over internet?

Another question is: Is there only one entity who is developing applications and services on internet?

The internet evolved by it's use cases, and those are not ALL negative. We these days use internet with positive use cases, some also use it with negative use cases, so does that mean having internet is bad?

Not necessarily mate. :)

We can not think of Mesh Network applications the same old way we have been thinking Internet applications. It's like thinking fitting a square block into a triangular or circular block. It's just not possible to have as good use if we'll be using Internet applications and services as same as over Mesh Network. The applications has to be redesigned and remolded to fit this kind of network, as not necessarily every Mesh node is heavy duty network hardware equipped.

There are both hardware and software related challenges in having such network. These are the challenges which needs to identify and work on. I'm no network hardware guru, but I can do some in parts of making applications for such network. And not necessarily with negative use case, but positive. That too is a challenge on it's own. But, I don't need to reinvent the wheel, I can use the existing tech out there and model it to fit and code according to Mesh network, instead of using those as is.

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deadlyllama

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#1547031 5-May-2016 10:02

indileosat:

We can not think of Mesh Network applications the same old way we have been thinking Internet applications. It's like thinking fitting a square block into a triangular or circular block. It's just not possible to have as good use if we'll be using Internet applications and services as same as over Mesh Network. The applications has to be redesigned and remolded to fit this kind of network, as not necessarily every Mesh node is heavy duty network hardware equipped.

There are both hardware and software related challenges in having such network. These are the challenges which needs to identify and work on. I'm no network hardware guru, but I can do some in parts of making applications for such network. And not necessarily with negative use case, but positive. That too is a challenge on it's own. But, I don't need to reinvent the wheel, I can use the existing tech out there and model it to fit and code according to Mesh network, instead of using those as is.

I'll ask again: Who do you expect to connect to this network, and how do you expect to persuade them to connect?

I get that you like the word "Mesh" and think that mesh networks are awesome. The hard problems here are not the technology problems, they're the people problems.

indileosat

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#1547040 5-May-2016 10:48

deadlyllama:

I'll ask again: Who do you expect to connect to this network, and how do you expect to persuade them to connect?

That's a good question. Sorry, I must have either misinterpreted it or must have somehow missed it.

I think those people would be who support blockchain related technologies.

deadlyllama:

I get that you like the word "Mesh" and think that mesh networks are awesome.

Yes, I like the word "Mesh". You can use whichever other word you like. And I understand if you don't like it.

deadlyllama:

The hard problems here are not the technology problems, they're the people problems.

I agree, it's people problems more.

BarTender

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#1547336 5-May-2016 20:13

Dynamic: For some families in my community, that is just too much money to spend on non-essentials.

If you can work out a way to turn the dozens of Spark/Vodafone routers posted out to clients who already have a router and don;t use the new one, you'd have a vast source of cheap hardware!

Agreed on the high costs and somewhat disagree on existing ISP provided routers. All of them are old as the hills and really restricted in their functions as they are the cheapest thing that can be given away and perform to spec. Problem is much of the consumer grade gear should really be considered disposable and chucked in the tip once it's done. Which is a shame, but reality.

indileosat:
Aredwood: I guess the other way of doing it is to not have any connectivity with the internet. But the only thing I could see such a network being used for is sharing copyrighted music and movies. If it is successful, It will be like Napster back in it's heyday.

That's interesting mate! Is that really the ONLY thing people do over internet?

Another question is: Is there only one entity who is developing applications and services on internet?

The internet evolved by it's use cases, and those are not ALL negative. We these days use internet with positive use cases, some also use it with negative use cases, so does that mean having internet is bad?

We can not think of Mesh Network applications the same old way we have been thinking Internet applications. It's like thinking fitting a square block into a triangular or circular block. It's just not possible to have as good use if we'll be using Internet applications and services as same as over Mesh Network. The applications has to be redesigned and remolded to fit this kind of network, as not necessarily every Mesh node is heavy duty network hardware equipped.

There are both hardware and software related challenges in having such network. These are the challenges which needs to identify and work on. I'm no network hardware guru, but I can do some in parts of making applications for such network. And not necessarily with negative use case, but positive. That too is a challenge on it's own. But, I don't need to reinvent the wheel, I can use the existing tech out there and model it to fit and code according to Mesh network, instead of using those as is.

There are various sites that talk about a day of internet usage. So the issue is either you are connected to the internet, or if you're not you are a island out doing nothing. Even Google's Project Loon was a worldwide meshnet and their primary goal was to provide cheap internet.

If you're expecting people to part with money for the service then you need to connect to the internet and expect a high proportion of the volume of data will be streaming video (including porn), social media platforms and Torrents. That would represent well over 70% by volume of all NZ internet traffic today.

Otherwise if you're not expecting people to pay for the service as there won't be any internet connection then it's a hobby and you can all share locally generated content like data from your weather station or home CCTV system and just keep it among your mates as that will really be the only audience interest if I have to give you my professional opinion. That also fits quite nicely into the ideals of the HAM Radio network and there is already a good community around that.

You're either in it to make money or it's a hobby. Or as a colleague of mine often says to me "How are you planning to bill for this since if you 'aint billing for it... It's a hobby"

indileosat

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#1547358 5-May-2016 21:49

BarTender:

You're either in it to make money or it's a hobby. Or as a colleague of mine often says to me "How are you planning to bill for this since if you 'aint billing for it... It's a hobby"

Yes, consider it as a hobby for now. Network usage and statics are real talking numbers.

I don't expect the network I think of to be perfect. There are already such networks out there and they can not competing with internet at all today.

But at least I see people and companies doing efforts in making and improving such networks on their part.

What I'm trying to do is find existing efforts being done in this area, learn about those and see if I could be of any help there, try to be of any technical help to make it easy to setup, if can't improve it.

That's true as you say it's a hobby if it's not paying. As I think of blockchain related projects popping up I'm sure there'll be paying and earning as well. But, still that's gonna take way long time.

For now, just consider it a hobby, learning and exploring phase.

Thanks for your informative reply. :)

raytaylor

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#1548364 8-May-2016 18:32

sbiddle:

indileosat:

What you suggest the best way to go with to have users and setup a small local "Community Broadband Network."?

What would you expect it to be if there could have been one ? Any not to have and have to haves in it.

The biggest thing to be aware of is that you'll automatically become an IPAP. You need to be fully aware of the implications of doing this, both from a legal and a technical perspective.

Was just going to say that. Copyright and security legislation in NZ has just made this sort of project infeasible for a community group.

You will need to settle on specific types of router. Also difficult because most consumer routers are not compatible with things like DD-WRT or other firmware that has mesh functions built in because you will typically encounter a DSL router - most third party firmware is instantly incompatible with any DSL router model.

Just look at the thompson routers spark were issuing for years - they had such little memory that they would stop showing images in the web gui.

Some things you will encounter

1) Copyright. You need to be able to have a method of identifying a specific end user if you recieve a copyright complaint notice. This is not easy to do with NAT. That then means you need to apply to APNIC for a range of ip addresses. These are in both short supply, and I dont think you can get them anymore.

2) TICSA Security crap. You need to get any hardware / firmware / management software for your network cleared by the police first. You also need to be able to have a point where police are able to plug-in and capture packets of a specific end user. Also not easy to do with a mesh network if you have multiple gateway nodes.

If you are not providing internet access, the above issues still apply to you and only add more complications.

How do motels get around it? Well they dont really. The way we treat our motel clients is that their network is an extension of ours - and thats something we as a network operator are willing to take on, and accept the liability exposure. Because we run the hotspots, if a copyright complaint comes in, we can target the end user, not the motel.

Mcdonalds and Starbucks however- I think they simply hope to fly under the radar. They give a small amount of data and block as many ports as possible to the point that it is highly unlikely a copyright infringement could result in a complaint.

Again, it's not my network

The police probably wont see it that way.

And my final comment is bandwidth. A single-radio router can only operate in half duplex. This means as you move further and further away (hops) between data source and destination, speed halves though each hop. Three hops away and the wifi protocol is so incredibly slow and unreliable that its just not feasible.

As stated above. Mesh was great when you were only proving a 64 or 128kbps (16kBps) service, but I wouldnt expect anything faster than that and video is just not going to work.

Now in saying that, I have never used them but you can build dual-radio or tri-radio mikrotik routers at a cost of $200+ each and it might be do-able. But in an urban area, the wifi bands are so congested its back to not being reliable.

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raytaylor

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#1548365 8-May-2016 18:35

BarTender:

There are various sites that talk about a day of internet usage. So the issue is either you are connected to the internet, or if you're not you are a island out doing nothing. Even Google's Project Loon was a worldwide meshnet and their primary goal was to provide cheap internet.

Loon started using wifi protocols but they found it wasnt going to work. So instead they have changed direction and now partner with cellular providers. From what I understand they are simply going to try and re-amplify the LTE 4g signal from a tower below, possibly a frequency shift, as the wifi hopping was too problematic.

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