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sciascia

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#133503 24-Oct-2013 11:08
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Hi There,  

We've just tried signing up for Orcon Fibre at work and at home but have been told it's not possible because:
- You can't have a copper phone line and a fibre internet line going into the same address
- Therefore, the phones have to go through VOIP on Orcon's 'Genius' modem
- But the Genius modem doesn't support monitored alarms  

I explained several times that we don't want our phones on the same package using VOIP and are happy to leave the phones as they are. But the Orcon rep insisted that you can't have phones on copper and internet on fibre even if you're prepared to pay to have them separate.  

This seems very weird as I would've thought that a lot of businesses (and homes) use a monitored alarm?  

Also, the only way to signup is to commit to the package and wait for a tech who may tell you after assessing your house that it will cost $X,XXX to get the fibre from the road, down your drive to your house - at which time you're already committed. We have no issue with paying but you kind of need to know what you're up for before you commit right?  

The whole things seems a bit odd - does anyone else have experience with this?  

Any pointers in the right direction would be much appreciated.  

Cheers  

Ben

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quentinreade
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  #920900 24-Oct-2013 11:27
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Hi Ben,
I am on Genius at home and have a monitored alarm - you just need to use/ find a provider who does IP based monitoring. There are a number. I used Alarm NZ.
We don't sell a product that features both copper and fibre, because you can do everything you need over fibre, and it's cheaper to do so.
Cheers, Quentin




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sciascia

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  #920921 24-Oct-2013 11:57
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Thanks heaps for the reply,

It seems from your answer that there's no technical reason why we couldn't have both. Which means instead of a signup (and all that involves with fibre) we'd  have to involve alarm companies, telecommunications companies and a more modern PABX (ours is simple but well before VOIP). Also, VOIP seems worse for phones (some of our clients use it) which is why it's cheaper I guess?

Anyway, you have your reasons and that's the service you offer so no worries.

Cheers and thanks for the reply.

Ben

sbiddle
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  #920928 24-Oct-2013 12:06
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First off VoIP quality is no different to a normal phoneline. The same alaw codec which should be used for VoIP is the same codec used in the ISDN and TDM world. If it is poor you're with a provider who's obviously doing things poorly.

Support of low speed data and alarms over VoIP opens up a whole can of worms. That's why the world is moving to IP or GSM monitoring. If your alarm company doesn't support these they're stuck in the dark ages and don't deserve your support.

As to whether copper and fibre can be kept on the premises depends entirely on the premises, and whether the ISP wants to support both services. Orcon obviously don't want to do so, and there are probably plenty of other providers who have the same view.




FireEngine
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  #920991 24-Oct-2013 13:38
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sciascia: Thanks heaps for the reply,

It seems from your answer that there's no technical reason why we couldn't have both. Which means instead of a signup (and all that involves with fibre) we'd  have to involve alarm companies, telecommunications companies and a more modern PABX (ours is simple but well before VOIP). Also, VOIP seems worse for phones (some of our clients use it) which is why it's cheaper I guess?

Anyway, you have your reasons and that's the service you offer so no worries.


It not our reason but dictated to us. The Govt via Crown Fibre Holdings dictated that Chorus remove the copper cable where possible when installing UFB. In some instances the copper is used to pull the fibre through. This is not an Orcon limitation, nor one of UFB per se but down to the agreement that was made that all ISPs have to abide by. Obviously no copper means no PSTN line.




Regards FireEngine


sciascia

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  #921060 24-Oct-2013 15:17
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Thanks guys - we don't currently use VOIP and unlike larger companies, have no real need to invest in phone tech.

Thanks for the info re the government. Upgrading everything as we go as a country makes sense but it does turn a much needed and expensive internet upgrade into something larger and more painful - I now understand why the Orcon rep suggested I think things over for a few days!

Cheers

chevrolux
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  #921089 24-Oct-2013 16:40
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sciascia: Thanks guys - we don't currently use VOIP and unlike larger companies, have no real need to invest in phone tech.

Thanks for the info re the government. Upgrading everything as we go as a country makes sense but it does turn a much needed and expensive internet upgrade into something larger and more painful - I now understand why the Orcon rep suggested I think things over for a few days!

Cheers


So what you are saying is you put zero value on your business communication needs and are unwilling to spend a bit to upgrade them even though it will likely last you another ten years (at the least) until another major upgrade?

No wonder business comms is in such a state with mindsets like this....

sciascia

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  #921174 24-Oct-2013 20:55
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So what you are saying is you put zero value on your business communication needs

What I'm saying is that with four staff, two lines, company voicemail and the ability to put people on hold and transfer calls, we have no need to change things or invest in VOIP.

and are unwilling to spend a bit to upgrade them even though it will likely last you another ten years (at the least) until another major upgrade?

We're a tiny company but will drop over $100k on high-end graphics computer and software upgrades before the year is out - we have no issue with spending it's just that VOIP and alarm changes/upgrades are not even on the list.

I also had no idea that IP alarm monitoring existed - the rep didn't suggest this and in fact, she left me with a choice: a monitored alarm or fibre - but not both. 

This made no sense to me, hence the post. And yes, I wrongly assumed the fibre upgrade was going to be simpler than it turned out to be but when this happens, you sometimes have to put things off until you have time. 

If that's a mindset which represents everything wrong with business comms then business comms is in more trouble than anyone realises!



Zeon
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  #921222 24-Oct-2013 22:22
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While Orcon are very stable technically, their sales staff/processes have huge issues and I'm saying this as someone who spends thousands with them every month. Not trying to find a solution to the alarm monitoring is classic.

I would suggest you speak to a business focused ISP like DTS, or Unleash (I use Unleash quite a bit).

Look at VOIP, it probably will save you money over a not too long term and protects your business continuity etc. a CLoud PBX would be the way to go.,




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michaelmurfy
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  #921243 24-Oct-2013 22:59
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Give Unleash a call, you'll get premium internet through them and still have the ability to keep the phone line active for alarm monitoring, well worth it in my opinion. 0800 750 250




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sciascia

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  #921349 25-Oct-2013 05:36
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Thanks guys, very helpful.

quentinreade
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  #921401 25-Oct-2013 09:15
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And thanks OP for your post.
The sales team is looking at how they can communicate the issues around monitored alarms better.
When we launched Genius and UFB there were very few, if any, options, but alarm companies have caught up, and we need to explain the options.
Thanks!




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6FIEND
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  #921425 25-Oct-2013 09:47
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quentinreade: And thanks OP for your post.
The sales team is looking at how they can communicate the issues around monitored alarms better.
When we launched Genius and UFB there were very few, if any, options, but alarm companies have caught up, and we need to explain the options.
Thanks!


I understand why you're trying to re-frame the discussion here from, "Why can't I keep my monitored alarm and get Fibre" to "Why wouldn't you get a better/newer alarm?"

...but - the fact of the matter is that Alarm systems are not as straightforward to change as telecomms providers are ;-)   Most of them are "built into" premeises at the time of construction - and the perception of most home-owners (residential at least) and all rental tenants is that it would be a nightmare of a job to retrofit them with a new one.    Whereas, I can change my ISP with a single phone call.

FWIW - I have a Fibre Internet Service and concurrent Copper PSTN connection on a bundled residential package from Telecom.

sbiddle
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  #921510 25-Oct-2013 11:04
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6FIEND:
quentinreade: And thanks OP for your post.
The sales team is looking at how they can communicate the issues around monitored alarms better.
When we launched Genius and UFB there were very few, if any, options, but alarm companies have caught up, and we need to explain the options.
Thanks!


I understand why you're trying to re-frame the discussion here from, "Why can't I keep my monitored alarm and get Fibre" to "Why wouldn't you get a better/newer alarm?"

...but - the fact of the matter is that Alarm systems are not as straightforward to change as telecomms providers are ;-)   Most of them are "built into" premeises at the time of construction - and the perception of most home-owners (residential at least) and all rental tenants is that it would be a nightmare of a job to retrofit them with a new one.    Whereas, I can change my ISP with a single phone call.

FWIW - I have a Fibre Internet Service and concurrent Copper PSTN connection on a bundled residential package from Telecom.


Telecom will be removing the copper service though once the LM SIP service is ready. There is nothing stopping you from then ordering another copper line on top, but your primary voice will move away from copper to the fibre.


MadEngineer
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  #923862 29-Oct-2013 22:37
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FireEngine:
sciascia: Thanks heaps for the reply,

It seems from your answer that there's no technical reason why we couldn't have both. Which means instead of a signup (and all that involves with fibre) we'd  have to involve alarm companies, telecommunications companies and a more modern PABX (ours is simple but well before VOIP). Also, VOIP seems worse for phones (some of our clients use it) which is why it's cheaper I guess?

Anyway, you have your reasons and that's the service you offer so no worries.


It not our reason but dictated to us. The Govt via Crown Fibre Holdings dictated that Chorus remove the copper cable where possible when installing UFB. In some instances the copper is used to pull the fibre through. This is not an Orcon limitation, nor one of UFB per se but down to the agreement that was made that all ISPs have to abide by. Obviously no copper means no PSTN line.
waaat? since when?  telecom-chorus fibre installs here have the copper left intact, and the phone continues to run on the copper.  When mine was installed, the copper was left intact and I had my adsl still running until my vodafone account was eventually closed (free fibre till jan 2013 deal)

i only had the copper snipped once i was happy for this to be done, so i could then liven up the house's phone jacks by connecting the genius router to the nearby phone jack.




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lucky015
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  #923907 30-Oct-2013 02:44
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MadEngineer:
FireEngine:
sciascia: Thanks heaps for the reply,

It seems from your answer that there's no technical reason why we couldn't have both. Which means instead of a signup (and all that involves with fibre) we'd  have to involve alarm companies, telecommunications companies and a more modern PABX (ours is simple but well before VOIP). Also, VOIP seems worse for phones (some of our clients use it) which is why it's cheaper I guess?

Anyway, you have your reasons and that's the service you offer so no worries.


It not our reason but dictated to us. The Govt via Crown Fibre Holdings dictated that Chorus remove the copper cable where possible when installing UFB. In some instances the copper is used to pull the fibre through. This is not an Orcon limitation, nor one of UFB per se but down to the agreement that was made that all ISPs have to abide by. Obviously no copper means no PSTN line.
waaat? since when?  telecom-chorus fibre installs here have the copper left intact, and the phone continues to run on the copper.  When mine was installed, the copper was left intact and I had my adsl still running until my vodafone account was eventually closed (free fibre till jan 2013 deal)

i only had the copper snipped once i was happy for this to be done, so i could then liven up the house's phone jacks by connecting the genius router to the nearby phone jack.


My thoughts also, I have seen it stated over and over again that the reason for removal of copper most of the time is due to council regulations on overhead cable and reusing existing cabling, As well as hybrid copper and fibre cables now being used which does not sound like it would be the case if it was a UFB mandate.

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