Immigration CE didn't tell select committee $35m IT project had been axed

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#3505900 24-Jun-2026 16:06

MikeAqua:

Prior to that, he was DCE for Labour Science and Enterprise.

Gawd, sounds like the shotgun marriage of a Political party and a Spaceship...

MikeAqua

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#3505905 24-Jun-2026 16:20

wellygary:

Gawd, sounds like the shotgun marriage of a Political party and a Spaceship...

I think the idea is to get business, employment and innovation policy settings aligned.

Mike

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#3505916 24-Jun-2026 16:47

wellygary:

Stu1:

They don’t allow concessions on open loop cards , they should be only on closed loop makes the solution a lot easier to implement. Consessions are part funded by regional council and or government which makes reconciliation difficult

Agreed, Open loop for non concession fares is becoming pretty standard, some even do capping. But concessions usually require stored value or some form of registration (naturally)

I just wish they would actually get on and roll something out.

Its taken way to long GW should be this year. I think phase 2 of Ecan is going in soon . A lot of politics in the program

KiwiSurfer

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#3505926 24-Jun-2026 18:47

Stu1:

Singapore has a good national system as well .

I'm sure you mean well, but saying Singapore has a national system is silly. They only have a single city so any city-wide system is by definition a national system. Which makes any comparison with almost another country pointless. If New Zealand was just an island with only Auckland we'd have have a national system 15+ years ago already. :)

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#3505927 24-Jun-2026 19:16

KiwiSurfer:

Stu1:

Singapore has a good national system as well .

I'm sure you mean well, but saying Singapore has a national system is silly. They only have a single city so any city-wide system is by definition a national system. Which makes any comparison with almost another country pointless. If New Zealand was just an island with only Auckland we'd have have a national system 15+ years ago already. :)

Singapore built its own solution and now handles around 7.5 million trips per day, making it one of the best real-world examples of what can work at scale. The only other comparable example is the Netherlands, and even there, coverage is not yet 100%. Most countries have never tried to implement a nationwide solution of this scope and complexity. The vendor cubic has delivered systems across the UK, the United States, and Australia, they have never implemented a single solution covering an entire country which is causing challenges.

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#3505942 24-Jun-2026 22:05

pdh: Can anyone remember a government IT project that went well ?

We’ve had a few at work that have cost a lot more for a similar result. When you are doing enterprise/government level deployments when they go wrong they go really wrong.

The difference between private industry and government failures is you hear about the governments ones. The private ones are quietly shuffled off and hidden from the shareholders.

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#3505943 24-Jun-2026 22:17

Handle9:We’ve had a few at work that have cost a lot more for a similar result. When you are doing enterprise/government level deployments when they go wrong they go really wrong.

The difference between private industry and government failures is you hear about the governments ones. The private ones are quietly shuffled off and hidden from the shareholders.

Yep, It's not just Governments who can waste money on IT projects. DHL had to write off €345 million due to their failed SAP project.
https://www.computerworld.com/article/1638280/sap-dont-blame-us-for-dhls-logistics-woes.html

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Handle9

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#3505944 24-Jun-2026 22:33

KiwiSurfer:

Stu1:

Singapore has a good national system as well .

I'm sure you mean well, but saying Singapore has a national system is silly. They only have a single city so any city-wide system is by definition a national system. Which makes any comparison with almost another country pointless. If New Zealand was just an island with only Auckland we'd have have a national system 15+ years ago already. :)

Its also had the same party in government for 67 years. It’s a wee bit of a different setup.

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#3505950 25-Jun-2026 07:38

Stu1:

Singapore built its own solution and now handles around 7.5 million trips per day, making it one of the best real-world examples of what can work at scale. The only other comparable example is the Netherlands, and even there, coverage is not yet 100%. Most countries have never tried to implement a nationwide solution of this scope and complexity. The vendor cubic has delivered systems across the UK, the United States, and Australia, they have never implemented a single solution covering an entire country which is causing challenges.

Switzerland?

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#3505963 25-Jun-2026 09:44

Stu1:

The vendor cubic has delivered systems across the UK, the United States, and Australia, they have never implemented a single solution covering an entire country which is causing challenges.

It's one reason why I am somewhat surprised the govt didn't go with Thales. They are the vendor behind AT HOP's system, so they have local knowledge, and I believe they are involved with the Netherland's system (their equipment looks fairly similar to Auckland). Thales is possibly the vendor for Singapore too.

Cubic to be fair are experienced - they have done the fare systems for many large PT networks overseas including several of Australia's capital cities.

Funnily enough AT HOP was meant to be a national system but the govt of the day got cold feet and dropped that plan, leaving AT to operate it on its own. What might have been if the govt pushed ahead and made it national in the first place...

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#3505983 25-Jun-2026 11:23

KiwiSurfer:

Stu1:

The vendor cubic has delivered systems across the UK, the United States, and Australia, they have never implemented a single solution covering an entire country which is causing challenges.

It's one reason why I am somewhat surprised the govt didn't go with Thales. They are the vendor behind AT HOP's system, so they have local knowledge, and I believe they are involved with the Netherland's system (their equipment looks fairly similar to Auckland). Thales is possibly the vendor for Singapore too.

Cubic to be fair are experienced - they have done the fare systems for many large PT networks overseas including several of Australia's capital cities.

Funnily enough AT HOP was meant to be a national system but the govt of the day got cold feet and dropped that plan, leaving AT to operate it on its own. What might have been if the govt pushed ahead and made it national in the first place...

Wasn't there some dispute being Wellington wanting to use Snapper (don't know the platform) and Auckland wanting to use their system which causing the delay?

Snapper has finally implemented payment by CC using NFC but there are limits. It cannot recognise that a patron has a Community Services Card and therefore has significant discounts on travel. And I don't think it can handle students either.

From my understanding your card isn't billed until the end of day so all your travel across the day can be captured but unlike if you are using a Snapper card where a transfer within 60 minutes is free, using contactless will incur a new trip charge.

It might require all patrons to create Snapper accounts and attach their CC details to them for discounts to be recognised (CC number is read, matches a client who is a community services card holder or student and charge accordingly) but for transfers, given the date/time of a swipe must be captured, if two transactions are recorded as occurring within 60 minutes for the same CC, treat it as a transfer.

What does AT Hop do? I am informed if you have a Gold Card you get a different AT Hop card that won't charge you after 9am whereas in Wellington you show your Gold Card and the drivers clicks a button to record a trip.

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#3505991 25-Jun-2026 11:56

lchiu7:

Snapper has finally implemented payment by CC using NFC but there are limits. It cannot recognise that a patron has a Community Services Card and therefore has significant discounts on travel. And I don't think it can handle students either.

From my understanding your card isn't billed until the end of day so all your travel across the day can be captured but unlike if you are using a Snapper card where a transfer within 60 minutes is free, using contactless will incur a new trip charge.

It might require all patrons to create Snapper accounts and attach their CC details to them for discounts to be recognised (CC number is read, matches a client who is a community services card holder or student and charge accordingly) but for transfers, given the date/time of a swipe must be captured, if two transactions are recorded as occurring within 60 minutes for the same CC, treat it as a transfer.

I Think CC payments in Wellington will remain only for adult full fares, The Council are going to let National ticketing do the heavy lifting on concessions, ( it would be bad press to spend $$ developing tying it to snapper concessions, when its all about to be replaces) - The reson they did it was that Snapper's IT support contract has ended, and they don't want to have to renegotiate it,

What does AT Hop do? I am informed if you have a Gold Card you get a different AT Hop card that won't charge you after 9am whereas in Wellington you show your Gold Card and the drivers clicks a button to record a trip.

AT require goldcard concession to be linked to your HOP ( they have lots of gated rail stations so presenting a physical goldcard card is a problem)

Again, Wellington are just waiting on national ticketing to solve the issue.

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#3505996 25-Jun-2026 12:14

This is a downside of subsidiarity. Different authorities do different things and if you want to integrate inter-regionally, it can be very difficult.

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#3506019 25-Jun-2026 13:57

lchiu7:

Wasn't there some dispute being Wellington wanting to use Snapper (don't know the platform) and Auckland wanting to use their system which causing the delay?

Worse - Snapper tried to muscle into the tender for the Auckland system which caused issues as they were originally not shortlisted -- but the Minister of Transport of the day instructed Snapper be included anyway (against AT advice). NZ Bus AKL for a year or so implemented Snapper at their own cost to try and force Snapper through. I still have a Snapper HOP card from that failed experiment which still works as a Snapper card in WLG today funnily enough. Ultimately AT ended up going with Thales and NZ Bus AKL were forced to remove all their Snapper equipment (and I recall there was even a failed experiment to tried to modify Snapper readers to accept Mifare cards in a last ditch effort to keep Snapper involved in some way). I remember it being such a drama all because NZ Bus and Snapper wanted to get their way.

Snapper has finally implemented payment by CC using NFC but there are limits. It cannot recognise that a patron has a Community Services Card and therefore has significant discounts on travel. And I don't think it can handle students either.

This seems to be typical overseas -- generally concessions holders are expected to get a transit card and load their concession onto that. This is also the case for the AT system.

From my understanding your card isn't billed until the end of day so all your travel across the day can be captured but unlike if you are using a Snapper card where a transfer within 60 minutes is free, using contactless will incur a new trip charge.

This is not an issue when properly done. Auckland still does free transfers within zone as they calculate all trips the same way regardless of whether if its HOP or contactless card. In some ways doing it at the end of the day is possibly easier as it means the system can calculate it all in one go rather than recalculate at the end of every trip. if Snapper does not do this, this is entirety 100% a Snapper problem they should solve - but most likely won't as it's less income for them. I believe Snapper does not set the fares but passes it on directly to the providers (adding their own margin on top which people pay at top-up time) -- this is different to AT where they are both the fare setter and the fare collector so they can just absorb extra costs in-house.

What does AT Hop do? I am informed if you have a Gold Card you get a different AT Hop card that won't charge you after 9am whereas in Wellington you show your Gold Card and the drivers clicks a button to record a trip.

As noted, AKL is like a modern system where it is not expected that there an army of humans around to police people. WLG still has ticketing staff in every train carriage like it's still the 1970's. AKL stopped this practice years ago and shifted to more modern practices e.g. fare gates and validation machines. Hence AT went down the route of loading this information into cards instead so this can be managed automatically.

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#3506025 25-Jun-2026 14:32

KiwiSurfer:

As noted, AKL is like a modern system where it is not expected that there an army of humans around to police people. WLG still has ticketing staff in every train carriage like it's still the 1970's. AKL stopped this practice years ago and shifted to more modern practices e.g. fare gates and validation machines.

Ticketing is only one of the jobs of Wellington train on-board staff. They're also needed to make sure people aren't stuck in the doors or fallen between the train and the platform before resuming the journey.

Some platforms are on curves and the driver can't see every door from the cab.

And yes, apart from the central station at certain times, there are no ticketing gates either.

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