Discussing copyright

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3892 posts

Uber Geek

#680201 1-Sep-2012 20:14

Anon1: I can guarantee you I am not pro-copyright. My motive behind those comments at the end is I believe we must stand up and fight rather than just accepting what is happening in the way of copyright laws because they have potential to ruin the internet.

Your comments do more and more to cement my impression that you are very Very VERY much PRO-copyright and not at all concerned about the Internet at all, but have an agenda to drum up fear and action that can, does and will damage the Internet.

You hide behind an alias. You advocate actions which cause serious disruption to the network and cause billions of dollars of damage to the network every year.

Network techs spend billions of dollars designing systems in every attempt to protect the network from the actions you are advocating.

If you really want to rise up in a positive way, then join groups like Internet New Zealand, in your real name, accept the endless invitations to be part of Internet policy making... hell, I issued one on Friday to meet me at a Wellington pub and I went to the DNC meeting last week in Christchurch where global internet issues were talked about.

With direct respect to copyright law, to get what you want we need those laws to be much better and much stronger than they currently are.

I don't know anything about what you know about policy makers, but these guys are very smart and really do know how to play chess. They know well when to loose a game to win the prize.

My mother commented to me just this morning that the Internet is a truely amazing domain to bring peace to the world, yet you advocate engaging in a global war in the space that has the most chance to maintain peace around the globe.

I honestly recommend doing some research in to the global wars of the 20th century and ask yourself if you honestly want a return to that time?

D

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jake18

51 posts

Master Geek

#680210 1-Sep-2012 20:52

The movie industry is just pure greed imo, i'll pay for stuff that is reasonable - eg itunes/spotify - i do have netflix/hulu but not purely legit - i am curious to why the Avengers 3D movie is about $58 NZ but over in the US you can get a copy for $27 US which is about $34 NZ... can you explain the major difference>?

DonGould

3892 posts

Uber Geek

#680216 1-Sep-2012 21:11

jake18: The movie industry is just pure greed imo, i'll pay for stuff that is reasonable - eg itunes/spotify - i do have netflix/hulu but not purely legit - i am curious to why the Avengers 3D movie is about $58 NZ but over in the US you can get a copy for $27 US which is about $34 NZ... can you explain the major difference>?

Is this the movie industry that is greedy or the retail industry?

Are US retailers using the movies as a loss leader to bring customers in and then making money from them on other products or service, where as the New Zealand industry is using candy as a loss leader and making profit on movies?

How is movie stock provided to retailers in New Zealand? Is it the same as in the US? Do retailers have to pay up front for the stock they hold? Let's just assume that the terms are the same in .us as .nz, but the .nz content includes a much higher freight component. If the movie costs .nz $15, they hold 10 copies, then that's $150 in capital. Are interest rates on that capital the same in .nz as .us?

What is the cost of buildings in .us as .nz? Are retailers charging higher margins because their rents are higher? How about other over heads such as insurance (which would justify a movie costing $500 each in Christchurch now) and power? I understand that power in .us is half the price, hence one of the reasons server hosting is so much cheaper there.

What is the APRU in New Zealand compared to America? I wonder if being more affordable in .us means that people actually buy them, where as they're so unaffordable here that only a few do while the rest just steal. Is this meaning that New Zealand retailers have long since figured out that the price point they currently have delivers them the most profit and covers the cost of losses and higher costs?

One get me wrong, I'm not actually taking sides on this one... I'm saying I have no real idea what's going on.

As I said above, I don't even believe comments from posters who's agenda seems very questionable to me.

Really this space needs open transparent answers in the public space with good regulation and good public education on all sides. Currently I see very Very VERY little of this and a great deal of FUD on both sides.

While the FUD continues I suspect that the existing business models will continue to erode and for the most part the public and public regulators will care little about the issues.

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kiwitrc

4123 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#680480 2-Sep-2012 18:10

freitasm:
Anon1: My motive behind those comments at the end is I believe we must stand up and fight rather than just accepting what is happening in the way of copyright laws because they have potential to ruin the internet.

The Internet? Are you worried about the Internet?

Did you know that copyright is used to block sales of generic medicines that could bring health to millions of people? Or used to block the use of seeds that could bring food to millions of people?

Reality is, the Internet is nothing compared to the lives of millions that have no access to the basic stuff - water, food and health.

I use the Internet because I'm privileged. You use the Internet because you're privileged. I don't like some of the copyright uses, but in the big scheme this is nothing compared to what really needs fixing.

Great post. Perspective is a wonderful thing.

Anon1

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#681292 4-Sep-2012 12:42

kiwitrc:
freitasm:
Anon1: My motive behind those comments at the end is I believe we must stand up and fight rather than just accepting what is happening in the way of copyright laws because they have potential to ruin the internet.

The Internet? Are you worried about the Internet?

Did you know that copyright is used to block sales of generic medicines that could bring health to millions of people? Or used to block the use of seeds that could bring food to millions of people?

Reality is, the Internet is nothing compared to the lives of millions that have no access to the basic stuff - water, food and health.

I use the Internet because I'm privileged. You use the Internet because you're privileged. I don't like some of the copyright uses, but in the big scheme this is nothing compared to what really needs fixing.

Great post. Perspective is a wonderful thing.

I see what you are saying but copyright in terms of physical things is needed in my opinion. It is a form of guarantee. If copyright did not exist what guarantee is there those drugs contain what you think they contain? what guarantee is there your phone is electrically safe? what gurantee is there the stihl chainsaw you bought has in-built safety mechanisms so you dont cut your head off (recent fairgo story). Unless I am missing your exact point?

The thing is with copyright in terms of online files they are exactly the same. I am really trying to get my head around the whole thing for the perfect solution.

Some points:
#Clicking on a video/tv show only to see 'this video is not available in your country' is ridiculous considering how globally connected we are now.

#Getting a personal youtube video removed due to a copyright claim is.. b## s###. Did it ever occur to them that it is there fans attaching their music to their personal videos?

#Searching google and then seeing some results have been removed to reasons just as anal as the one above is also b## s####

.........
I feel music should be produced through love for the greater good and distributed for free. Money can be generated by donations and concerts etc. Yes I have thought about this from an artist perspective. Some artist already do this.

Movies I am not sure what to think yet. There will always be a market for going to the theater, which it is fair you pay for. I would not be as tempted to spend xx million producing a Hollywood block buster based on the hope of donations though, could it work? It would stop allot of the rubbish being produced. I am sure everyone has gone to see a movie based on an awesome trailer only to find out it was rubbish. If people like it enough they will want to pay for it, if not maybe it just doesn't cut it? There was a restaurant that operated on this system you go in eat and pay at the end if you like it.

If you could download a recent movie for free would you donate if you enjoyed it? Of-course there will be some free loaders but they will always exist. I am sure many people would donate if they enjoyed it enough and the fact that they are willingly giving it to you creates a sort of guilt trip into paying for it?

Could it work on some sort of social platform like facebook where everyone can see what you thought of each movie and how much you donated?

Klipspringer

2385 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#681303 4-Sep-2012 13:16

- 1

qwerty7

434 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#681310 4-Sep-2012 13:30

BraaiGuy: - 1

??? it is anyone's guess what that means. Maybe for a discussion topic you should try and explain yourself.

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BruceHamilton

77 posts

Master Geek

#681317 4-Sep-2012 13:52

Copyright doesn't block medicines, however patent rights may. Evene for patents, governments have the right to insist that essential medicines are provided, and can override a patent holder who doesn't offer ( or charges too much for ) a drug in their market. The USA is very protective of their drug companies against such unilateral action, and is currently playing hardball during their TransPacific Partnership negotiations. The drug companies have responded to patent expiration by working with, or creating, generic companies of their own.

Generic medicine makers are seldom sued by generic drug users in the USA , mainly because the companies appear to have shallow pockets. Lawyers usually go for the original patentee company ( Brand Name ) that spent the money ( about $1 billion ) pushing the drug through the regulatory approval hoops - because those multinational companies have deeper pockets, even though their clients were using the generic version.

DonGould

3892 posts

Uber Geek

#681328 4-Sep-2012 14:09

Anon1: I see what you are saying but copyright in terms of physical things is needed in my opinion. It is a form of guarantee. If copyright did not exist what guarantee is there those drugs contain what you think they contain? what guarantee is there your phone is electrically safe? what gurantee is there the stihl chainsaw you bought has in-built safety mechanisms so you dont cut your head off (recent fairgo story). Unless I am missing your exact point?

Copyright is not the correct kind of protection for the things you're talking about.

Patents and brands (and the protection that goes with them) is what you're talking about.

Anon1:

The thing is with copyright in terms of online files they are exactly the same. I am really trying to get my head around the whole thing for the perfect solution.

Many people have been trying to figure out a perfect solution.

I've come to the realization that there is not a single 'perfect solution'. There is a wide range of different solutions that fit different situations.

Anon1:
Some points:
#Clicking on a video/tv show only to see 'this video is not available in your country' is ridiculous considering how globally connected we are now.

Very much agree. In fact, in some cases it is causing our kids to hate people from other countries.

The Internet New Zealand mailing list has been following this for the past week.

It's a very complex commerical question but very simple technical issue.

Anon1:
#Getting a personal youtube video removed due to a copyright claim is.. b## s###. Did it ever occur to them that it is there fans attaching their music to their personal videos?

Yes, your comment does occur to them. However, what you're talking about is also an 'art' and where do you draw the line?

Say I join parts of 5 clips together. I've then created a new work. "Don's Montage". People watch it because they like my edit of "Phil Collins". I make nothing on this. However, your ISP makes money because you download it and Google makes money from the ads they include on the page.

While you're watching my montage, you're not watching the works of someone else.

So, while I can't sing to save myself, I've taken Phils work and am using it to make ISPs and Google rich.

I very much doubt that Phil would care about his lost revenue. He's going deaf, earned more money that I'm sure he can count and almost retired.

But what about the artist who wants you to come to his concert, by you can't because you've spent all your money on your ISP and have never had the time to listen to him and get to like him?

Anon1:
#Searching google and then seeing some results have been removed to reasons just as anal as the one above is also b## s####

Agreed. If results have been removed then they should be just that. Not stubs left in the system to tell you they're gone.

A problem out there right now is tech people have to spend way to long just fixing stuff that hackers break and don't get time to do anything properly.

I know. I spent 4 hours this week just cleaning up from one hacker and I won't even get paid for half of that time.

.........

Anon1:
I feel music should be produced through love for the greater good and distributed for free. Money can be generated by donations and concerts etc. Yes I have thought about this from an artist perspective. Some artist already do this.

Nice idea! :) :) :)

It just doesn't work.

I develop open source software and people just don't pay.

It would be lovely to think that the project would get a dollar from everyone who benefits from it, but people just don't give. They have a sense of entitlement that we've fostered that FLOSS is FREE.

Music also costs lots of money to make good music.

I recommend watching a season of 'American Idol' to just start to understand how much it costs to train a good singer.

Justin Beeber and One Direction are not amazing because they are just a wonder of God, they are as they are because of the technical direction of many hard working people who train these guys to be able to do what they do.

Sure, Justin has some raw talent, but it's more than that.

You also have to remember that the Internet is a new thing. We've only had broadband in homes for 5 years in New Zealand (in any numbers and quality - in fact, quality wise, it's been 1 year).

Change has happened in the music space, but up until recently the only way to get music out there and get money from it has been radio and CD stores.

You can just replace DVD stores with the internet over night. You really can!!!

But is that fair either? Is it fair to just destroy the investment in a CD store over night by spending billions on Internet service delivery?

These are the sorts of issues that have lead to the GFC. Value is destroyed.

Anon1:
Movies I am not sure what to think yet. There will always be a market for going to the theater, which it is fair you pay for. I would not be as tempted to spend xx million producing a Hollywood block buster based on the hope of donations though, could it work? It would stop allot of the rubbish being produced. I am sure everyone has gone to see a movie based on an awesome trailer only to find out it was rubbish. If people like it enough they will want to pay for it, if not maybe it just doesn't cut it? There was a restaurant that operated on this system you go in eat and pay at the end if you like it.

It works both ways. Google a movie called "The Help". Production budget of $25m, sales of $125m.

You're quite right, some times the producers just get the balance wrong. They spend to much on the trailer and produce something totally misleading.

Anon1:
If you could download a recent movie for free would you donate if you enjoyed it? Of-course there will be some free loaders but they will always exist. I am sure many people would donate if they enjoyed it enough and the fact that they are willingly giving it to you creates a sort of guilt trip into paying for it?

No. The reality is that most people will not pay. If they would then it would already be happen. People don't donate when they download Firefox, they just whinge about bits that don't work as expected.

Anon1:
Could it work on some sort of social platform like facebook where everyone can see what you thought of each movie and how much you donated?

No. What you're suggesting is a system like reviewing a movie after I've seen it before I leave the theater. When I leave I have other things on my mind, like what I'm going to do next.

Say you take a 'partner' to the movie, would you be thinking about reviewing the movie or what you're going to do to make that 'first date' special? Perhaps you're thinking of how you escape this person?!

Also, how do you rate the movie you took 'her' to because 'she' liked that sort of movie? "I hated the movie because my date was crap"?

However, you're also asking to change the whole dynamic of how commerce works, and that's just not realistic, and even if it is, it's just not going to happen over night.

D

Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz

oxnsox

1923 posts

Uber Geek

#681341 4-Sep-2012 14:46

Anon 1; copyright tantrum
Skynet law pings first three 3-strikers
Waterfront; discussing business idea

Serendipity or conspiracy......

gzt

17104 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#681350 4-Sep-2012 14:57

You missed one there:

Do you actually own downloaded music?

http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=48&topicid=108711

Anon1

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#681351 4-Sep-2012 14:59

DonGould:

Anon1:
If you could download a recent movie for free would you donate if you enjoyed it? Of-course there will be some free loaders but they will always exist. I am sure many people would donate if they enjoyed it enough and the fact that they are willingly giving it to you creates a sort of guilt trip into paying for it?

No. The reality is that most people will not pay. If they would then it would already be happen. People don't donate when they download Firefox, they just whinge about bits that don't work as expected.

Anon1:
Could it work on some sort of social platform like facebook where everyone can see what you thought of each movie and how much you donated?

No. What you're suggesting is a system like reviewing a movie after I've seen it before I leave the theater. When I leave I have other things on my mind, like what I'm going to do next.

Say you take a 'partner' to the movie, would you be thinking about reviewing the movie or what you're going to do to make that 'first date' special? Perhaps you're thinking of how you escape this person?!

Also, how do you rate the movie you took 'her' to because 'she' liked that sort of movie? "I hated the movie because my date was crap"?

However, you're also asking to change the whole dynamic of how commerce works, and that's just not realistic, and even if it is, it's just not going to happen over night.

D

Just want to say I really enjoyed reading your responses. In the past I have found trying to have a debate in a forum on a topical issue just results in criticism and hatred when people disagree. Healthy two way discussion is really all I am looking for. I am open to my opinions being changed.

I think in the quoted comment though you missed I was talking about downloading a movie after it has been released in cinemas, not viewing it at the movies. However I guess as much as I want to believe the donation thing you are right it would not work. I try to ask myself if I myself would donate and like to believe I would but i guess the truth is for allot of it I wouldn't meaning it would never be sustainable.

Anon1

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#681366 4-Sep-2012 15:40

The music / movie industries should be trying to take advantage of the internet rather than fighting and ruining it with copyright laws. Yes they have with itunes etc? But the problem is it averages say $10 per album or $1.29 a song. Not allot of money..no but the thing is I have an alternative which is only limited to the data allowance of my internet connection and is COMPLETELY FREE. What one are most people going to choose. There has to be some give from the music industry because technology has changed things, lets face it the days of $20 - $30 albums are well gone. $10 yes it is cheaper but it is just a file, a few more clicks and I can download it for $0.

Is the spotify idea the future of music?
I would honestly be happy to pay for it. The only reason I don't right now is because mobile data is hella expensive. The thing is for me atleast it has ADDITIONAL BENEFITS. New music instantly (no stuffing around searching then downloading then adding to itunes then adding to ipod), and no stuffing around trying to correct the titles + album art of illegally obtained files (some of which also have rubbish audio quality).

Is / can spotify be sustainable for artist?
I read some artist refuse to put their music on spotify in fear it will hurt record sales. Record sales? hows that working for them? Personally I think they are stupid. Coincidentally when my 'friend' opened up their illegal music collection who was the first artist on the screen? It was one of these artist who refused to put their music on spotify. So who is going to be the loser here?

I feel there is allot of hope for the spotify idea.

But then there is also the movie industry. The spotify idea does not exactly work aswell for movies it would just be an expensive subscription. (one of the reasons spotify has the potential to be so big is $10 a month is an acceptable amount to pay compared to free (pirated) due to the extra benefits it provides).

When I talk about movies I am referring to the digital equivalent of dvd's (as i think cinemas will never die, sure downloading has had some impact but watching at home just isn't the same. I still go to the cinema if I think it is worth watching at the cinema).

Maybe it is a pipe dream but I hope in the future we can see tv shows / movies from all around the world and choose what we want to see due to internet tv. I don't mind tv commercials in return for free tv as long as the commercial time : program time ratios remain somewhat reasonable. I am sure some stations are getting close to 50:50 which is ridiculous and based on greed.

I cannot think of how to get people to pay for movies by offering additional benefits like spotify does with music.

Could it work on some sort of system where the file is not stored physically but you have a code to play it. You can also sell the code / right to play to others in the future?

However there is always screen capture...

DonGould

3892 posts

Uber Geek

#681371 4-Sep-2012 15:58

Anon1 you're starting to talk about DRM now. DRM is also very complex and just as many people object.

Do you tie it to hardware? A STB perhaps? Then just how many STB's does one home need to view everything?

Do you tie it to a platform - Apple perhaps?

You're also over looking public health issues.

You're ignoring some of the reasons why we make content harder to get.

From a public health POV we don't want you to have endless access to as much content as you choose. You can get very sick. Just look at the number of people that porn is making sick.

Some of this stuff is actually driven by public policy and it's done for reasons that most people neither know, understand or care about.

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DonGould

3892 posts

Uber Geek

#681396 4-Sep-2012 17:24

Anon1: Just want to say I really enjoyed reading your responses. In the past I have found trying to have a debate in a forum on a topical issue just results in criticism and hatred when people disagree. Healthy two way discussion is really all I am looking for. I am open to my opinions being changed.

You're welcome. I very much agree... these are issues that we all need to understand much more about so we can find our way though to a better place and respect as many as we can along the way.

Sadly, no matter how it plays out, not everyone is going to be happy all the time.

Anon1:
I think in the quoted comment though you missed I was talking about downloading a movie after it has been released in cinemas, not viewing it at the movies. However I guess as much as I want to believe the donation thing you are right it would not work. I try to ask myself if I myself would donate and like to believe I would but i guess the truth is for allot of it I wouldn't meaning it would never be sustainable.

Even in the home or on the go, after you've watched the movie, you're more incline to want to move on. That's why we ask for payment for a service up front and not following.

D

Promote New Zealand - Get yourself a .kiwi.nz domain name!!!

Check out mine - i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz - don@i.am.a.can.do.kiwi.nz

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