Tivo CGA Claim October 2017

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#1743670 19-Mar-2017 08:13

minimoke: Hmm - ok. I guess the tivo licence hasnt run out. Its still there - it is just the supplier is failing to ensure it is available.

I dont think the cga is reliant on the number of consumers.

Notice is surely an alteration to the original sale/purchase agreement. And cant be applied withour agreement.

The supplier of the licence has gone broke

Every product and service that has ever existed has ended. The products and services that you can currently buy are the exception, but they will end too, and join the list

This is nothing new

If "Lifetime Licence" was not in the mix, would that make this thread redundant, or not?

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#1743672 19-Mar-2017 08:28

minimoke: Riahon. When i purchased the tivo i dont recall it was reliant on a life time licence. If it was then i consider that to be the lifetime of the box. My lifetime isnt reasonable - though perhaps in the absence of a definition of "lifetime " it could be.

And if you read the T+C's you may find out what the lifetime is defined by

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#1743675 19-Mar-2017 08:34

minimoke: I will come to the terms and condiyions later. But the point i made earlier is they cant be introduced after the contract was made.

They weren't.

You agreed to specific terms and conditions when you a) Purchased the Tivo, and b) Activated the Tivo. Right now you're pretending those terms and conditions don't exist.

Yes terms and conditions can't override the CGA, but if you're going to take action you're wasting your time taking it against Spark because you have zero chance of getting anywhere.

You need to get a lawyer and take action against Hybrid for ending the service on which you rely on.

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#1743677 19-Mar-2017 08:39

I guess (if I could expand on sbiddle's post) - Spark sold the box, which technically still works, just a feature on it doesn't due to a change in service. That service was provided by Hybrid, who are stopping said service, so any course of action would be with them, not Spark.

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#1743678 19-Mar-2017 08:40

minimoke: The flip side of course is we would we tolerate a supplier who sells something with a built in obsolescence which is not told to the consumer. I think the cga helps protect consumers from such things.

The hypothetical discussion about "what would happen if the Tivo service would shut down" is something covered pretty extensively at the time of the Tivo launch (there are also discussions on here about it). It's something that actually scared people away from buying the Tivo because of the locked in model.

Suppliers building products that become obsolete isn't anything new. Making a CGA claim over such an action comes down to what the life span would be for such a product, and typical small claims court and FTA rulings for small appliances have been in the vicinity of 5 years. I see the Tivo being no different.

If you haven't done already (and I'm assuming you haven't based on many of your comments) I suggest you spend a few hours today reading the hundreds and hundreds of pages on Whirlpool about this very issue before you waste your time on a CGA claim that's going to go nowhere, followed by you presumably spending money lodging a small claims court case againt Spark in the hope you're going to get something back.

It's also worth noting the CGA does not cover for consequential losses, so any idea you're going to get money to cover "damages for the loss of enjoyment and functionality provided by the Tivo given no similar product is available" is nothing but a dream.

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#1743683 19-Mar-2017 08:48

sbiddle:

minimoke: The flip side of course is we would we tolerate a supplier who sells something with a built in obsolescence which is not told to the consumer. I think the cga helps protect consumers from such things.

The hypothetical discussion about "what would happen if the Tivo service would shut down" is something covered pretty extensively at the time of the Tivo launch (there are also discussions on here about it). It's something that actually scared people away from buying the Tivo because of the locked in model.

Suppliers building products that become obsolete isn't anything new. Making a CGA claim over such an action comes down to what the life span would be for such a product, and typical small claims court and FTA rulings for small appliances have been in the vicinity of 5 years. I see the Tivo being no different.

If you haven't done already (and I'm assuming you haven't based on many of your comments) I suggest you spend a few hours today reading the hundreds and hundreds of pages on Whirlpool about this very issue before you waste your time on a CGA claim that's going to go nowhere, followed by you presumably spending money lodging a small claims court case againt Spark in the hope you're going to get something back.

It's also worth noting the CGA does not cover for consequential losses, so any idea you're going to get money to cover "damages for the loss of enjoyment and functionality provided by the Tivo given no similar product is available" is nothing but a dream.

Excellent point.

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#1743687 19-Mar-2017 08:58

Here's a better example I think, of something similar to this TiVo situation.

You go to your local chain or computer store and purchase a 3 year license for your favourite antivirus software.
After a year that antivirus software company runs out of money and closes down.
Now you no longer get updates for your av software and you've still got two more years of your license.
Would you have a claim against the store you bought it from?
They weren't the ones providing the update service. They wouldn't have known the av company was going to close down.

Opinions are my own and not the views of my employer.

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#1743689 19-Mar-2017 09:03

CYaBro: Here's a better example I think, of something similar to this TiVo situation.

You go to your local chain or computer store and purchase a 3 year license for your favourite antivirus software.
After a year that antivirus software company runs out of money and closes down.
Now you no longer get updates for your av software and you've still got two more years of your license.
Would you have a claim against the store you bought it from?
They weren't the ones providing the update service. They wouldn't have known the av company was going to close down.

Sure would have a claim against the store, you paid money for X service to the store, they provide as per the T&C's at time of sale or they refund

CYaBro

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#1743691 19-Mar-2017 09:06

gregmcc:
CYaBro: Here's a better example I think, of something similar to this TiVo situation.

You go to your local chain or computer store and purchase a 3 year license for your favourite antivirus software.
After a year that antivirus software company runs out of money and closes down.
Now you no longer get updates for your av software and you've still got two more years of your license.
Would you have a claim against the store you bought it from?
They weren't the ones providing the update service. They wouldn't have known the av company was going to close down.

Sure would have a claim against the store, you paid money for X service to the store, they provide as per the T&C's at time of sale or they refund

And if their ts&Cs state that the store doesn't provide the update service?
Just like spark did for hybrid.

Opinions are my own and not the views of my employer.

tdgeek

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#1743692 19-Mar-2017 09:07

CYaBro: Here's a better example I think, of something similar to this TiVo situation.

You go to your local chain or computer store and purchase a 3 year license for your favourite antivirus software.
After a year that antivirus software company runs out of money and closes down.
Now you no longer get updates for your av software and you've still got two more years of your license.
Would you have a claim against the store you bought it from?
They weren't the ones providing the update service. They wouldn't have known the av company was going to close down.

But the issue is what is lifetime for Hybrids EPG licence?

Its worked for 8 years, now they have likely covered off all scenarios and shut it down, expecting that legal issues are covered.

Bit different to a paid 3 year licence that has been shut down after 1. Its more a lifetime licence (which T+C's most likely say is a reasonable length of time) and it was free to the user possibly also. Still a bit grey having said that. The answer must be in the T+C's as to what they can legally do to end the service.

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#1743695 19-Mar-2017 09:09

gregmcc:

CYaBro: Here's a better example I think, of something similar to this TiVo situation.

You go to your local chain or computer store and purchase a 3 year license for your favourite antivirus software.
After a year that antivirus software company runs out of money and closes down.
Now you no longer get updates for your av software and you've still got two more years of your license.
Would you have a claim against the store you bought it from?
They weren't the ones providing the update service. They wouldn't have known the av company was going to close down.

Sure would have a claim against the store, you paid money for X service to the store, they provide as per the T&C's at time of sale or they refund

You paid for the box. The service it seems was provided free, so you have a consequential loss as the STB can still play and record Freeview. You mention T+C's, the ability to shut down the free EPG service without legal recourse must be in there

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#1743697 19-Mar-2017 09:09

Just to add to this...

Asking same said friend who I mentioned earlier about the Igloo issue he's not aware of any successful CGA/Disputes Tribunal claims against Sky TV for shutting down Igloo and leaving people with a crippled box despite this being under the ~5 year period accepted as being a reasonable life for a consumer electronics device.

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#1743703 19-Mar-2017 09:17

What I see here is a lot like the Trump thread. There is a rational argument to accept the Tivo EPG shutdown, and also some good sounding arguments to fight it. But the latter seems more based around angry Tivo owners (understandable) than the legal reality. This stuff happens.

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#1743709 19-Mar-2017 09:24

CYaBro:
gregmcc:
CYaBro: Here's a better example I think, of something similar to this TiVo situation.

You go to your local chain or computer store and purchase a 3 year license for your favourite antivirus software.
After a year that antivirus software company runs out of money and closes down.
Now you no longer get updates for your av software and you've still got two more years of your license.
Would you have a claim against the store you bought it from?
They weren't the ones providing the update service. They wouldn't have known the av company was going to close down.

Sure would have a claim against the store, you paid money for X service to the store, they provide as per the T&C's at time of sale or they refund

And if their ts&Cs state that the store doesn't provide the update service?
Just like spark did for hybrid.

They may have buried tome T&C's deep within their website, but if the arn't going to disclose these prior to sale they ain't enforceable.

I purchased 2 Tivo's from Telecom, no mention before or after the purchase about additional T&C's , and the 3rd one I got from NL's, got the box from a pile in store, went and paid for it and walked out, no extra T&C's there.

And then there is the CGA which states unreasonable T&C's are unenforceable, when the advertising says "Product lifetime service" and information screens on the product say the same thing, this makes Telecoms T&C's unreasonable.

Looking back on it, Offering a "Product Lifetime Service" wasn't a good move, for Hybrid simply to not be around was the best way out, which is what has happened, the liability has now moved to the retailers, the CGA is a powerful piece of legislation, and it points the finger squarely at them to fix it, they could do a Hybrid, but both Spark and NL's are unlikely to cease trading because of this.

The most likely option for them is to sit back and wait for the out come of a CGA claim and resultant disputes tribunal outcome.

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#1743712 19-Mar-2017 09:29

sbiddle:

Just to add to this...

Asking same said friend who I mentioned earlier about the Igloo issue he's not aware of any successful CGA/Disputes Tribunal claims against Sky TV for shutting down Igloo and leaving people with a crippled box despite this being under the ~5 year period accepted as being a reasonable life for a consumer electronics device.

Did Igloo offer a "Product Lifetime Service"? (don't know, I never had anything to do with one)

Didn't Igloo do a final software patch to allow it to operate as a standard freeview box, complete with EPG?

It was left in a fully functional state, even after a factory reset it will continue to work, where as Tivo's will not, they will not have a benefit of an EPG, you do a factory reset it's all over, basically tivo's will become a digital VCR - not fit for their intended purpose

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