Tivo CGA Claim October 2017

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Biddle Corp

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#1743714 19-Mar-2017 09:36

gregmcc: They may have buried tome T&C's deep within their website, but if the arn't going to disclose these prior to sale they ain't enforceable. I purchased 2 Tivo's from Telecom, no mention before or after the purchase about additional T&C's , and the 3rd one I got from NL's, got the box from a pile in store, went and paid for it and walked out, no extra T&C's there. And then there is the CGA which states unreasonable T&C's are unenforceable, when the advertising says "Product lifetime service" and information screens on the product say the same thing, this makes Telecoms T&C's unreasonable. Looking back on it, Offering a "Product Lifetime Service" wasn't a good move, for Hybrid simply to not be around was the best way out, which is what has happened, the liability has now moved to the retailers, the CGA is a powerful piece of legislation, and it points the finger squarely at them to fix it, they could do a Hybrid, but both Spark and NL's are unlikely to cease trading because of this. The most likely option for them is to sit back and wait for the out come of a CGA claim and resultant disputes tribunal outcome.

You don't need to be told T&C before a sale for them to be enforceable as you agreed to them when you activated your Tivo product. Had you not agreed with these Tivo service T&C you would have been well within your right to return your Tivo to the store for a full refund under consumer law.

By activating the Tivo service you agreed to those terms and conditions.

tdgeek

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#1743719 19-Mar-2017 09:40

gregmcc:

sbiddle:

Just to add to this...

Asking same said friend who I mentioned earlier about the Igloo issue he's not aware of any successful CGA/Disputes Tribunal claims against Sky TV for shutting down Igloo and leaving people with a crippled box despite this being under the ~5 year period accepted as being a reasonable life for a consumer electronics device.

Did Igloo offer a "Product Lifetime Service"? (don't know, I never had anything to do with one)

Didn't Igloo do a final software patch to allow it to operate as a standard freeview box, complete with EPG?

It was left in a fully functional state, even after a factory reset it will continue to work, where as Tivo's will not, they will not have a benefit of an EPG, you do a factory reset it's all over, basically tivo's will become a digital VCR - not fit for their intended purpose

The brick issue is a grey area, and should be fixed.

The Igloo was a low cost item, and also only in service since 2012, so I assume thats reasonable use. Tivo is a higher cost item, but was in use for 8 years, maybe that reasonable? In the US, you pay for the EPG sub. Here, it was included in the price I have to assume. with that in mind, the T+C at time of purchase, that the EPG licence holder, Hybrid cannot guarantee a literal lifetime of its ability to pay licence fees, (So T+C may state lifetime covers the period that Hybrid has the licence), the cost of the Tivo being unto $1000 which also includes the licence fee, and 8 years, may also make that reasonable

tdgeek

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#1743723 19-Mar-2017 09:44

Here is what Tivo users in OZ received (Tivo Community Forum). This is the basis of their (HybridTV) cessation.

This is the email I got from TiVo support when I complained about the service being discontinued:

"Thank you for your email regarding the end of the TiVo Service.

Like nearly all of our customers, you have had your TiVo device for more than 5 years, which is a reasonable time in consumer electronics, and we are not obliged to provide you with any refund at all, nor pay for a replacement device.

The discontinuation of the TiVo service on 31 October 2017 does not result in a breach of the consumer guarantees given:

(a) the TiVo service has been supplied in accordance with the Terms of Use throughout our licence from TiVo Inc;

(b) we are providing customers with 8 months' notice of the cessation of the TiVo Service; and

(c) there is no fault or defect with the TiVo device itself, albeit that no service can be accessed through the TiVo device because the TiVo service will have ceased."

gregmcc

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#1743728 19-Mar-2017 10:12

sbiddle:

You don't need to be told T&C before a sale for them to be enforceable as you agreed to them when you activated your Tivo product. Had you not agreed with these Tivo service T&C you would have been well within your right to return your Tivo to the store for a full refund under consumer law.

I'll call you on that one, Fair trading act requires that relevant T&C's should be disclosed before sale, they arn't enforceable after the sale, and now that the T&C's are been changed then by law it's treated as a new contract, I'm sure Tivo owners won't accecpt this as the new contract, so this would mean refunds would be in order.

By activating the Tivo service you agreed to those terms and conditions.

By activation we were agreeing to Tivo's T&C's not Telecoms, Tivo's T&C stated (and still do) "Product lifetime service"

Looking at you logic, I could simply set up a web site to state my T&C's on retail purchases, something like 10% of the retail purchase price should be refunded to me every year as a benefit of owning your product.

Add a little sticker on my eftpos card stating T&C's apply, hey presto after 10 years of owning a product I now have all my money back, yes it is unreasonable this is why the CGA exists to stop retailers who are unreasonable from exploiting consumers.

At the end of the day, if the retailer doesn't want the hassle of the obligations the CGA imposes on them, then they need to stop been a retailer.

there are a lot of annoyed tivo users who paid good money for a good product that was sold with a product lifetime service, that's what they expect, now they are been told their good product will be next to useless in a few months. Is there another product which comes close to Tivo out there in the NZ retail market? Short answer is no.

Now that the T&C's are been changed it time for a refund, Spark and NL's are the companies in the firing line for the refund

Dulouz

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#1743729 19-Mar-2017 10:22

I'd be in on a class action except I never paid for my Tivo.

Amanon

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#1743743 19-Mar-2017 11:20

I may be missing something, but the terms don't mention anything about lifetime service. It hasn't been edited out either. Comparing the terms as they appeared in late 2010 (archive.org) with today in a diff checker shows relatively minor changes to wording (i.e. Freeview|HD -> free-to-air) and no changes about service times.

riahon

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#1743745 19-Mar-2017 11:22

gregmcc:

By activation we were agreeing to Tivo's T&C's not Telecoms, Tivo's T&C stated (and still do) "Product lifetime service"

The Tivo product is dying in Oct, hence the lifetime has ended.

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gregmcc

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#1743759 19-Mar-2017 12:02

riahon:

gregmcc:

By activation we were agreeing to Tivo's T&C's not Telecoms, Tivo's T&C stated (and still do) "Product lifetime service"

The Tivo product is dying in Oct, hence the lifetime has ended.

If it was an actual failure due to hard drive, or power supply or some kind of actual physical failure then fair enough it's life has ended, this is not the case, the support for the EPG and a good portion of it's intended functionality is been removed, Tivo's will still be functional after Oct 31st, but severely restricted.

So no the life is not over

What about if it was a car and the manufacturer decided that for what ever reason after 10 years you could now only drive at 30km/h down to to the local shops, and the A/C was disabled, would anyone accecpt that?, even worse if the manufacturer had a plaque in the car that said "Product lifetime service" If it was me it would be back at the dealer demanding my money back.

surfisup1000

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#1743760 19-Mar-2017 12:14

CYaBro: Here's a better example I think, of something similar to this TiVo situation.

You go to your local chain or computer store and purchase a 3 year license for your favourite antivirus software.
After a year that antivirus software company runs out of money and closes down.
Now you no longer get updates for your av software and you've still got two more years of your license.
Would you have a claim against the store you bought it from?
They weren't the ones providing the update service. They wouldn't have known the av company was going to close down.

I don't think this is a great analogy with respect to consequences.

With Tivo, the hardware/software/services are tightly bound and any problem with one of these 3 factors breaks the Tivo. Consequences are fatal.

In your analogy, you can substitute a new AV at a very minor cost and your computer is still perfectly usable. The consequences are minor.

mattwnz

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#1743765 19-Mar-2017 12:31

Peppery:

I may be missing something, but the terms don't mention anything about lifetime service. It hasn't been edited out either. Comparing the terms as they appeared in late 2010 (archive.org) with today in a diff checker shows relatively minor changes to wording (i.e. Freeview|HD -> free-to-air) and no changes about service times.

Tivo USA ones define what the tivo life time licens means, and tivo would be considered the manufacturer wouldn't they? I mean haven't they contacted out to Hybrid but once that license ends it returns to Tivo?Anyone with the tivo would have seen the lifetime service license in the tivo and taken that st face value. Whatever the case, something as important as this should have been clearly disclosed on the front of the box when it was purchased, and not hidden on fine print and ambiguity of legal wording written by professional lawyers.A product expiry date should have been printed on it if they knew the date their contact ended, and if not a warning that the service may end at any time if they decide to close down. Although they may not have sold many boxes if they had done that!

bagheera

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#1743766 19-Mar-2017 12:40

what a tivo - it basicly a computer - google average life time for a computer - you get 3 - 5 years, CGA say it covers the average life span of device, tivo stop selling devices over 5 years ago, on what ground do you think you feel that a tivo should have a greater life than 5 years?

mattwnz

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#1743767 19-Mar-2017 12:44

sbiddle:
Just to add to this...

Asking same said friend who I mentioned earlier about the Igloo issue he's not aware of any successful CGA/Disputes Tribunal claims against Sky TV for shutting down Igloo and leaving people with a crippled box despite this being under the ~5 year period accepted as being a reasonable life for a consumer electronics device.

Because normally retailers will provide a solution before it gets to that stage. I returned my igloo box to the retailer and they provided me with a replacement freeview box and I think it was about 3 years old at the time. But sky also had a compensation offer that I presume many customers took up. . So customers were treated far better. But many got the box free on a contract anyway.

As per my previous post, where are you getting this 5 year life from because that conflicts with the nz consumer figures. Can you please provide a source for the 5 years you keep quoting?

mattwnz

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#1743768 19-Mar-2017 12:51

bagheera:
what a tivo - it basicly a computer - google average life time for a computer - you get 3 - 5 years, CGA say it covers the average life span of device, tivo stop selling devices over 5 years ago, on what ground do you think you feel that a tivo should have a greater life than 5 years?

Its a PVR which IMO is more similar to aVCR or TV when comparing to similar products. A computer has a more limited life because OS upgrades slow it down over time and new models are always coming out which supersedes them.. But computers lives are now longer than they used to be because windows and software isn't as demanding, so you can easily get 8 years out of a high spec pc before it is too slow.

gregmcc

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#1743769 19-Mar-2017 12:53

bagheera:

what a tivo - it basicly a computer - google average life time for a computer - you get 3 - 5 years, CGA say it covers the average life span of device, tivo stop selling devices over 5 years ago, on what ground do you think you feel that a tivo should have a greater life than 5 years?

We are not talking about the the hardware here, we are talking about the
"product lifetime service" basically the provision of the EPG so it can preform as it was intended to, once this is gone, it is basically a digital VCR, no ability to schedule recordings, no season pass, no identification as to what recordings are except for a date/time.

They were sold with a "Product lifetime service" and now the T&C's are been forceabily changed, under NZ law (the fair trading act and the CGA) consumers don't have to accecpt this, they can demand a repair/replace/refund

Journeyman

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#1743770 19-Mar-2017 12:53

sbiddle:

It's also worth noting the CGA does not cover for consequential losses, so any idea you're going to get money to cover "damages for the loss of enjoyment and functionality provided by the Tivo given no similar product is available" is nothing but a dream.

I'm sorry but I don't think that's at all correct.

Extra loss or damage

(consequential loss)

Consequential loss is a loss (normally one that costs you money) that you suffer as a result (consequence) of something going wrong with the goods you bought or a service received.

The Consumer Guarantees Act allows you to claim compensation for consequential loss from a retailer.

CP-CGA-Goods-June-2014.pdf

However, I do agree that the OP is not all likely to get consequential losses, especially for something as woolly as "the loss of enjoyment and functionality". I suspect that consequential loss, as far as the CGA goes, is likely to cover more tangible things rather than hurty feelings.

I think the OP and others are clinging to some very untenable concepts. One being the idea that the product was sold with a built-in obsolescence in mind. No matter how much you wish that to be true, it is simply not the case and it's naive to think otherwise. The other issue is this concept of what 'lifetime' means or even specifically what it refers to. It's a very long and circuitous path to go down and one that I think will turn out to be a waste of time.

Ultimately, the service is defunct and that's been clear for a while now and you didn't buy the product any time recently. That's it. Game over. Move on with your life.

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