Tivo CGA Claim October 2017

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750 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1743771 19-Mar-2017 12:56

I think the T's and C's that apply to me as a consumer of a product sold be telecom are the ones I'll show below. I dont recall these Ts and C's being agreed before I purchased. My recollections was "we'll supply you with the Tivo if you agree to the $30 a week (as I recall) extra payment on your telecom account." On the telecom T's and C;s there is no link to the terms of use of tivo media Device and tivo service agreement.

Back in teh day (2009) the media view was "Telecom will have exclusive rights to sell the TiVo set-top box in New Zealand. TiVo is due to go on sale to Telecom broadband customers early in November priced at $899. It will act as a FreeviewHD decoder and will also let viewers download pay-per-view movies and access other free and paid services over the internet. Telecom will "zero rate" content and services that are delivered to Tivo boxes via broadband, meaning downloads will not count toward customers' data caps."

And the Press release said below. two things - seems to confirm the relations is between the customer and Telecom. Its also a world class entertainment device - which I reckon has more than your bog standard device 5 year life expectancy.

MEDIA RELEASES

» Media Releases Archive

TELECOM AND HYBRID TV BRING TiVo TO NEW ZEALAND LIVING ROOMS FROM NOVEMBER

Telecom broadband will enable TiVo entertainment downloads with no impact on customers' monthly data allowance

Telecom and Hybrid Television Services, the exclusive licensee of TiVo® products in Australia and New Zealand, today announced a partnership that will see TiVo delivering unmetered entertainment to NZ living rooms from November.

The deal will provide Telecom broadband customers with the ability to download movies and shows to their TV with no impact to their monthly broadband data allowance as well as access to all of the Freeview|HD® channels.

The TiVo media device allows viewers to pause and rewind live TV, record every episode in a series with the Season Pass feature, auto record favourite actors using the WishList search and provide a safe viewing environment for their children with TiVo KidZone.

Telecom broadband will also unmeter games and information services as well as the 14-day on-screen guide and software updates within the TiVo.

Alan Gourdie, CEO Telecom Retail: "TiVo represents a revolution in the way Kiwis watch television, this new entertainment service allows the freedom to watch what you want, when you want and enjoy top rated movies on the television without impacting your monthly broadband data allowance.

"We are delighted to add this world class entertainment device to New Zealand's most popular broadband service; which already provides customers services such as Yahoo!Xtra Pro Mail, a comprehensive security suite and photo manager Flickr Pro all at no additional cost," says Mr Gourdie.

TiVo Terms and Conditions

Telecom TiVo Terms and Conditions

The following terms and conditions apply in relation to your purchase of a TiVo® media device or other associated TiVo equipment and/or software (TiVo Products) from Telecom New Zealand Limited (referred to as Telecom, we, us or our) by purchasing TiVo Products you agree to be bound by these terms and conditions.

Separate Terms

Separate terms apply to your use of the TiVo Media Device, TiVo Service , CASPA™ On-Demand Service (CASPA™ Service), and Home Networking Package:

Your use of your TiVo Media Device and TiVo Service is governed by the Terms of Use of TiVo Media Device and TiVo Service agreement with Hybrid Television Services (ANZ) Pty Limited.
Your use of the CASPA™ Service is governed by the Terms of Use of CASPA™ Service - New Zealand with Hybrid Television Services (New Zealand) Limited.
Your use of the Home Networking Package (if applicable) is governed partly by the Terms of Use of the TiVo Media Device and TiVo Service, as the terms of a software licence with Hybrid Television Services (New Zealand) Limited which you are required to enter into at the time you install the software.
If you are a Telecom broadband your use of the TiVo and CASPA™ Services are also subject to our Broadband Terms and Conditions.

By purchasing TiVo Products you acknowledge and accept that you understand that in order to access the TiVo Service you need to have a television (standard or high definition), a broadband connection, a television antenna connection (rooftop UHF aerial) and to be in a Freeview|HD® coverage area. Without limiting your rights under the Consumer Guarantees Act 1993 will not accept returns of TiVo Products if you do not have one or more of these.

Liability disclaimers

The Consumer Guarantees Act 1993 - as a residential customer you have rights under the Consumer Guarantees Act 1993 and will we meet our responsibilities under that Act and this clause does not alter those rights. However, if you use the TiVo Products for business purposes (or have told or represent to us you will do so) then you agree that that Act does not apply to the TiVo Products you purchase from us.

Except to the extent superficially stated in these Terms or any separate terms or required by Telecom and any of our related companies and our and their respective officers, employees, contractors, agents and suppliers make nor representations about the suitability, reliability, availability, timeliness, lack of viruses or other harmful features, or accuracy of information, the TiVo Products, the TiVo Service, the CASPA™ Service or other materials provided to you.
We are not responsible for the TiVo Service or the CASPA™ Service, which are services provided by Hybrid Television Services.

To the fullest extent permitted by law, in no circumstances will we be liable to you or any third parties for any loss of data, revenue, profits or lost of business or any indirect, incidental, consequential, special, punitive or exemplary damages or losses which you may incur as a result of anything we have done or not done, or otherwise in connection with your purchase of the TiVo Products, or your use of the TiVo and CASPA™ services, regardless of the types of claim or the nature of the cause of action, even if we have been advised of the possibility of damage or loss.

Returns

You may return your TiVo Products:

In accordance with the expressed warranty pursuant to Part D of the Terms of Use of TiVo Media Device and TiVo Service; or
If the Consumer Guarantees Act 1993 is otherwise relevant.

If you wish to return your TiVo Products then (without limiting our responsibilities under the Consumer Guarantees Act 1993) you need to contact us on 123.

Privacy

We will comply with our Privacy Policy and you accept this policy as governing our use of the personal information we receive about you.

General

We may change these Terms from time to time by publishing the changed terms on our website. Changes may take the form of changing or removing existing terms, or by adding new ones or change may take the form of completely new terms.

These Terms will be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of New Zealand and you agree to submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of New Zealand.

bagheera

539 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1743772 19-Mar-2017 12:56

my old crt tv do not work now that it gone digital or even my lcd tv, should i get new one for free - no the tv still work fine, it just the tuner that the issue

mattwnz

20163 posts

Uber Geek

#1743773 19-Mar-2017 12:56

surfisup1000:
CYaBro: Here's a better example I think, of something similar to this TiVo situation.

You go to your local chain or computer store and purchase a 3 year license for your favourite antivirus software.
After a year that antivirus software company runs out of money and closes down.
Now you no longer get updates for your av software and you've still got two more years of your license.
Would you have a claim against the store you bought it from?
They weren't the ones providing the update service. They wouldn't have known the av company was going to close down.

I don't think this is a great analogy with respect to consequences.

With Tivo, the hardware/software/services are tightly bound and any problem with one of these 3 factors breaks the Tivo. Consequences are fatal.

In your analogy, you can substitute a new AV at a very minor cost and your computer is still perfectly usable. The consequences are minor.

IANAL but IMO in this case you would go back to the retailer for a solution. It is bad luck for the retailer but it is a risk a running a retail business and is why we have the CGA. So if either the manufacturer or the retailer disappear the consumer can connect either for a resolution.

mattwnz

20163 posts

Uber Geek

#1743774 19-Mar-2017 13:02

bagheera:
my old crt tv do not work now that it gone digital or even my lcd tv, should i get new one for free - no the tv still work fine, it just the tuner that the issue

But it does still work as you can get a digital set top box for it. Also anyone who purchased a CRT it would be pretty old. Also some people got free boxes for their existing TVs as the government ran a program when analogue was closed down

gregmcc

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#1743775 19-Mar-2017 13:06

bagheera:

my old crt tv do not work now that it gone digital or even my lcd tv, should i get new one for free - no the tv still work fine, it just the tuner that the issue

did the CRT tv manufacturer build in a planned switch off date, but promise you "Product lifetime service"? - no, your CRT still works as intended, plenty of 3rd party add ons to make it work with the current TV system, the tivo is locked up tight, and the key is about to be thrown away

bagheera

539 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1743778 19-Mar-2017 13:08

mattwnz:
bagheera:

my old crt tv do not work now that it gone digital or even my lcd tv, should i get new one for free - no the tv still work fine, it just the tuner that the issue

But it does still work as you can get a digital set top box for it. Also anyone who purchased a CRT it would be pretty old. Also some people got free boxes for their existing TVs as the government ran a program when analogue was closed down

then buy a license from freeview & us tivo and setup a server and your tivo will work too, there is nothing wrong with your tivo physical after shutdown - it all software plus 5 year is a long time for any computer product - pvr tv etc, after 5 year, forget cga and buy a replacement product.

sbiddle

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#1743779 19-Mar-2017 13:13

gregmcc:

sbiddle:

You don't need to be told T&C before a sale for them to be enforceable as you agreed to them when you activated your Tivo product. Had you not agreed with these Tivo service T&C you would have been well within your right to return your Tivo to the store for a full refund under consumer law.

I'll call you on that one, Fair trading act requires that relevant T&C's should be disclosed before sale, they arn't enforceable after the sale, and now that the T&C's are been changed then by law it's treated as a new contract, I'm sure Tivo owners won't accecpt this as the new contract, so this would mean refunds would be in order.

By activating the Tivo service you agreed to those terms and conditions.

By activation we were agreeing to Tivo's T&C's not Telecoms, Tivo's T&C stated (and still do) "Product lifetime service"

Looking at you logic, I could simply set up a web site to state my T&C's on retail purchases, something like 10% of the retail purchase price should be refunded to me every year as a benefit of owning your product.

Add a little sticker on my eftpos card stating T&C's apply, hey presto after 10 years of owning a product I now have all my money back, yes it is unreasonable this is why the CGA exists to stop retailers who are unreasonable from exploiting consumers.

At the end of the day, if the retailer doesn't want the hassle of the obligations the CGA imposes on them, then they need to stop been a retailer.

there are a lot of annoyed tivo users who paid good money for a good product that was sold with a product lifetime service, that's what they expect, now they are been told their good product will be next to useless in a few months. Is there another product which comes close to Tivo out there in the NZ retail market? Short answer is no.

Now that the T&C's are been changed it time for a refund, Spark and NL's are the companies in the firing line for the refund

The FTA does not force a retailer to provide you with, and for you to agree with all terms and conditions when purchasing a product. If this was the case buying anything would be a logistical nightmare, and it's why there are now exceptions such as cooling off periods. If you were unhappy with the T&C imposed by Hybrid (one of which allowed them to terminate the service) which you would have read and agreed to when you activated your Tivo service you should have returned the Tivo to Spark for a full refund which you would have been entitled to by law.

The relevant terms and conditions of both Telecom, and those of Hybrid for the Tivo Service were both separate, and I've yet to see a single piece of evidence other than your claim that any of these terms or conditions have changed since the Tivo was sold other than minor changes to text to reflect minor changes to wording. What terms & conditions do you believe have been changed?

At the end of the day Hybrid have no money and the future of the Tivo in NZ and AU has all but been doomed for probably 7ish years now since it failed miserably at retail level and partnerships with CH7 and TVNZ fell apart. I'm really surprised it's actually continued for as long as it did.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

scuwp

3885 posts

Uber Geek

#1743780 19-Mar-2017 13:15

I am as annoyed at this as the next TiVo user, but with respect the argument that some compensation is somehow owed after 5+ years service (on what is essentially a computer running 24/7) is on a hiding to nowhere.

If for no other reason the pragmatic view that any claim will need a lawyer conversant in contract law (possibly internationally) which will cost an inordinate amount more than any possible compensation, could be tied up in a court case for years arguing semantics and interpretations of T&C's, while the chance of success is so incredibly remote, not the least because the service providers are broke and gone. Pick your battles wisely.

I do wish you all the best, but I have instead decided to build a bridge and move on.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

gregmcc

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#1743782 19-Mar-2017 13:18

sbiddle:

gregmcc:

sbiddle:

You don't need to be told T&C before a sale for them to be enforceable as you agreed to them when you activated your Tivo product. Had you not agreed with these Tivo service T&C you would have been well within your right to return your Tivo to the store for a full refund under consumer law.

I'll call you on that one, Fair trading act requires that relevant T&C's should be disclosed before sale, they arn't enforceable after the sale, and now that the T&C's are been changed then by law it's treated as a new contract, I'm sure Tivo owners won't accecpt this as the new contract, so this would mean refunds would be in order.

By activating the Tivo service you agreed to those terms and conditions.

By activation we were agreeing to Tivo's T&C's not Telecoms, Tivo's T&C stated (and still do) "Product lifetime service"

Looking at you logic, I could simply set up a web site to state my T&C's on retail purchases, something like 10% of the retail purchase price should be refunded to me every year as a benefit of owning your product.

Add a little sticker on my eftpos card stating T&C's apply, hey presto after 10 years of owning a product I now have all my money back, yes it is unreasonable this is why the CGA exists to stop retailers who are unreasonable from exploiting consumers.

At the end of the day, if the retailer doesn't want the hassle of the obligations the CGA imposes on them, then they need to stop been a retailer.

there are a lot of annoyed tivo users who paid good money for a good product that was sold with a product lifetime service, that's what they expect, now they are been told their good product will be next to useless in a few months. Is there another product which comes close to Tivo out there in the NZ retail market? Short answer is no.

Now that the T&C's are been changed it time for a refund, Spark and NL's are the companies in the firing line for the refund

The FTA does not force a retailer to provide you with, and for you to agree with all terms and conditions when purchasing a product. If this was the case buying anything would be a logistical nightmare, and it's why there are now exceptions such as cooling off periods. If you were unhappy with the T&C imposed by Hybrid (one of which allowed them to terminate the service) which you would have read and agreed to when you activated your Tivo service you should have returned the Tivo to Spark for a full refund which you would have been entitled to by law.

The relevant terms and conditions of both Telecom, and those of Hybrid for the Tivo Service were both separate, and I've yet to see a single piece of evidence other than your claim that any of these terms or conditions have changed since the Tivo was sold other than minor changes to text to reflect minor changes to wording. What terms & conditions do you believe have been changed?

www.mytivo.co.nz

At the end of the day Hybrid have no money and the future of the Tivo in NZ and AU has all but been doomed for probably 7ish years now since it failed miserably at retail level and partnerships with CH7 and TVNZ fell apart. I'm really surprised it's actually continued for as long as it did.

Hybrid is gone and so has any contract or agreed terms and conditions.......as many and myself have said several times.....next cab on the rank is Spark, they are still bound by the terms and conditions

Yabanize

2350 posts

Uber Geek

#1743784 19-Mar-2017 13:21

gregmcc:

bagheera:

my old crt tv do not work now that it gone digital or even my lcd tv, should i get new one for free - no the tv still work fine, it just the tuner that the issue

did the CRT tv manufacturer build in a planned switch off date, but promise you "Product lifetime service"? - no, your CRT still works as intended, plenty of 3rd party add ons to make it work with the current TV system, the tivo is locked up tight, and the key is about to be thrown away

The difference here between the computer (should reasonably last 5 years) Yeah, It may last more. But the manufacturer doesn't prevent it from working anymore, that's whats happening here. They should not have made the box so reliant on the TiVO service.

This is the manufacturer of the device itself, preventing it from working anymore, Not just a computer or TV dieing after 5 years.

The CRT manufacturer did not have control of when Analogue was going to be switched off, New Zealand broadcasters were in control of that

sbiddle

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#1743785 19-Mar-2017 13:22

minimoke:

I think the T's and C's that apply to me as a consumer of a product sold be telecom are the ones I'll show below. I dont recall these Ts and C's being agreed before I purchased. My recollections was "we'll supply you with the Tivo if you agree to the $30 a week (as I recall) extra payment on your telecom account." On the telecom T's and C;s there is no link to the terms of use of tivo media Device and tivo service agreement.

I'm not sure where your idea comes from that you have to be shown every set of terms and conditions while in a store related to the product you're buying. This has not, and is not the case. There are lots of things retailer does have to tell you, particularly around financial agreements, but if everybody had to sit there and read multipage terms and conditions in a store before purchasing any product retail would be a nightmare.

You agreed to the Tivo service terms and conditions when you activated your Tivo account. You should have read these terms and conditions and since you obviously disagree with them you should have immediately returned the box for a refund. The law doesn't provide for changing your mind ~7 years later and deciding you don't like something you agreed to.

Nothing is going to bring back the Tivo service. It's time to build a bridge and move on. If you don't want to move on you can join the Australians looking at legal action against Tivo and/or Hybrid, but there is nothing in the CGA or FTA that's going to change their obligations to you. Even in Australia where current consumer laws are actually tougher in many ways than our FTA or CGA there is not going to be any legal basis for a refund.

Unless those of you with Tivo's want to put your money where your mouths are and engage with a lawyer to take action against Hybrid I think it's time to build a bridge and move on.

blakamin

4431 posts

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#1743786 19-Mar-2017 13:24

Round and round in circles, just like whirlpool.

gregmcc: By activation we were agreeing to Tivo's T&C's not Telecoms, Tivo's T&C stated (and still do) "Product lifetime service"

Where?

scuwp

3885 posts

Uber Geek

#1743787 19-Mar-2017 13:25

Someone earlier asked where the 5 years comes from...I am not a member but understand that Consumer NZ have published a list of expected lifetimes for different products as a guide, based on case law in some cases. Here is the latest copy I can find from another website:

Refrigerators - 15+ years
Ovens and stoves - 15+ years
Microwaves - 8+ years
Clothes driers - 15+ years
Heaters - 5+ years (fan) and 10+ years (convection and radiant)

Computers (desktop or laptop) - 5 years
Televisions - 12+ years

Given the TiVo runs 24/7 (unlike most consumer computers) I would expect some moderation of the lifespan.

Lazy is such an ugly word, I prefer to call it selective participation

blakamin

4431 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#1743788 19-Mar-2017 13:30

minimoke:

I think the T's and C's that apply to me as a consumer of a product sold be telecom are the ones I'll show below. I dont recall these Ts and C's being agreed before I purchased. My recollections was "we'll supply you with the Tivo if you agree to the $30 a week (as I recall) extra payment on your telecom account." On the telecom T's and C;s there is no link to the terms of use of tivo media Device and tivo service agreement.

{snip}
We are not responsible for the TiVo Service or the CASPA™ Service, which are services provided by Hybrid Television Services.

And what did the TiVo say when you first turned it on? Something like "by activating this device you agree to Ts & Cs located blah blah blah"

NonprayingMantis

6434 posts

Uber Geek

#1743789 19-Mar-2017 13:31

The lifetime thing you are referring to is a pricing thing. It means that for the life of the product they will not charge you for the epg service.
It doesn't mean they are guaranteeing to run the epg for an infinite amount of time.

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