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bfginger
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  #2413788 6-Feb-2020 18:56
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But you couldn't mistake a R3.6 ceiling batt for an R6.0 - there is quite a difference in thickness.

 

You're right but installers will still do things like forget to install any insulation out of line of sight of the roof cavity man hole. 

 

I think the consumer needs to think more long term, but whose job is it to educate them? Much of what are considered upgrades now I believe will be the norm in 10 years. The joinery company was telling us that Housing NZ are putting thermally broken joinery into new state houses now (not sure about Low E), yet the norm for most people having a house built is non-thermal and plain glass.

 

It shouldn't be costing HNZ much to do it too.

 

People are often comparing apples to oranges when judging the pricing of thermally broken aluminium. Extrusions are made at different width profiles with wider "architectural" profiles containing more metal and a higher margin pricetag. Describe something as "architectural" and the architects will pay attention. Apart from APL, all thermally broken profiles in New Zealand are of the medium width profiles so if you go compare a narrow, budget solid aluminium profile against a premium "architectual" profile with a thermal break there's going to be a larger difference in price than just what came from the thermal break. The actual thermal break should add as little as 3 or 4% to window manufacturing costs but some costs are fixed and uptake has been very low.

 

There is a method behind why the companies other than APL are providing thermal breaks in only their premium profiles. The standard exterior installation method in New Zealand is intended for solid aluminium and degrades performance for thermally broken aluminium but not as much for wider thermally broken profiles. It is possible to install thermally broken aluminium inline without this penalty (Altus provides instructions) but it isn't something New Zealand builders are familiar with.  

 

Unfortunately I'm not confident any building code upgrades in 10 years won't be messed up by the government as building ministers never seem to know enough about building. Many low e products are poor quality so mandating their use could degrade instead of improve the living environment. 

 

One issue for bathrooms is there are many different types of obscured glass. Cathedral obscured glass is common in New Zealand but it doesn't provide good privacy when there is line of sight from outside. Etchlite or Opalucent translucent laminate are better in those cases.

 

With the extra we're spending on insulation, windows, and heating.... the house better not be colder than it should be!

 

One thing you can do to make a house feel warmer is have wool carpets instead of synthetic fibre. Wool doesn't pull the heat out of your feet. 

 

What can you do except rely on your plumber and tiler for this and hope they do a good job?

 

There are some companies that specialise in auditing construction sites. There are reputable plumbing companies but they may charge more.

 

neb:
bfginger:

 

I'd put insulation in the internal walls too (acoustics) though it'd be a big cost saver to use R2.2 over R2.8 there. 

 

Even if you put it nowhere else, put the best sound insulation you can between the general bathroom and bedroom 3. The last thing someone sleeping in there wants to hear is BA-WOOOSH!!! at 3 in the morning. Possibly around the laundry area as well, and a thicker concrete slab beneath so a washer/dryer on spin cycle doesn't shake half the house.

 

Higher density plasterboard such as products intended for wet areas or acoustic performance has 50% more mass and will reduce sound transmission. I'd assume the bathroom side would have wet area plasterboard but on the bedroom side you could request acoustic plasterboard for sound reduction. It is also possible to ask for thicker acoustic plasterboard (13mm versus standard 10mm) which by adding more mass reduces sound transmission further at the expense of losing 3mm of room space. 

 

Most acoustic branded insulation doesn't perform much better than cheap R2.2. Real performing acoustic insulation has performance numbers provided on datasheets. The best I've found is Autex AAB48-100 which is the only batt product that is dense enough to be good at reducing low frequency noise. It's quite expensive. AAB is available in black or white blankets at difference prices, I don't know what that's about. 

 

If you're particularly desperate to soundstop a room there are methods of using distancing brackets and twin layers of plasterboard with a dampening interlayer of material or paste.  




nofam
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  #2413873 6-Feb-2020 21:33
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bfginger:Higher density plasterboard such as products intended for wet areas or acoustic performance has 50% more mass and will reduce sound transmission. I'd assume the bathroom side would have wet area plasterboard but on the bedroom side you could request acoustic plasterboard for sound reduction. It is also possible to ask for thicker acoustic plasterboard (13mm versus standard 10mm) which by adding more mass reduces sound transmission further at the expense of losing 3mm of room space. 

 

Most acoustic branded insulation doesn't perform much better than cheap R2.2. Real performing acoustic insulation has performance numbers provided on datasheets. The best I've found is Autex AAB48-100 which is the only batt product that is dense enough to be good at reducing low frequency noise. It's quite expensive. AAB is available in black or white blankets at difference prices, I don't know what that's about. 

 

If you're particularly desperate to soundstop a room there are methods of using distancing brackets and twin layers of plasterboard with a dampening interlayer of material or paste.  

 

 

This is quite right - denser wallboard and insulation will help a little, but my advice is to do what I did - mechanically separate the wallboard from the framing using Gib Rail, and double-gib each side of the wall using noiseline 10mm.  Avoid putting any electrical sockets or other penetrations in the wall, seal around the first layer of gib with soundseal, offset the second layer of gib so the joins are staggered, and then seal around the perimeter of the gib with more soundseal and stop as usual.

 

Because our lounge shares a wall with my daughter's bedroom, I also used Green Glue between the sheets of gib on the bedroom side.  The results are amazing.  You can buy Green Glue locally, but I found it cheaper to buy from Amazon but that may not be the case now.


Paul1977
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  #2415550 10-Feb-2020 13:24
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33coupe:

 

Just for reference

 

Dining table 2440 x 1800

 

Island 1400 x 1000 (1000 between island and worktops)

 

kitchen 2000 x 65d

 

kitchen 3120 x 65

 

This is a very rough draft as doesnt include fridge etc (and more overhead cupboards etc), but just a basic idea.

 

 

@33coupe I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned this, but 1000 between your island and worktops is a lot narrower than the norm. 1300 seems to be what you see most (in Christchurch anyway). I personally think 1200 is fine, but I'd be very cautious about going less than that.

 

Edit: That's not to say 1000 won't work for you, just be very sure before you commit to that.

 

Edit 2: I see that's you've moved on from that particular design for the kitchen any way.




33coupe

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  #2415747 10-Feb-2020 22:25
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Thanks again for the replies, so much info is fantastic. We're probably going with 1054 between island due to space constraints, sure it will be fine. Thanks though.
We're now closer to finalising the plan, just going to move sliding door closer to kitchen and two bigger windows either side (ignore sofa, not sure what's going on there lol).



I'm sorry, I'm going to start needing help on other things as well like:

Electrical/wiring
Where to put my tv (hopefully one day projector screen) in family room with 5.1?
A/v stacked in a corner (hidden cables)?
Should I use my Ubiquiti wifi extender?
Considering ring video doorbell and a security camera kit (no subscription)

Wanting to put led strips in kitchen area. Can I have different strips with different power supply, but all connected to one app (thinking under cupboards and around island)?



Click to see full size

billgates
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  #2415755 10-Feb-2020 22:47
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IMO, you should not go for a living room setup if you are space and budget constrained. You will really appreciate space around your kitchen once you practically start using it. You want recommended 1.2m space between the kitchen cooktop island and main island. 1.05m is fine between drawer cabinet and side of main kitchen island.

 

The space of 873mm between main kitchen island and dining is not practical at all. The space between entry area and living is not practical at all. The space left between living and entry of media room is specially not practical at all. You should visualise things by using a measuring tape and place your  sofas between dining table, kitchen island etc where you currently live to give you an idea. If you are going to live here for a while, you want comfortable living. You are better off to just have a media room and kitchen with Pantry or scullery and design your plan around this.

 

In regards to electrical, run multiple network points from central wall mounted rack location somewhere in garage to TV locations. Quadruple power points to each TV location. 2 x double power points in each bedroom, garage, pantry, kitchen cooktop wall at minimum. Run couple of network cables to ceilings for wireless AP install. Eufy doorbells are better than Ring or Google Nest IMO if you want a cloud connected wireless one. If you want local recording then go for Fanvil i30, i31S or i32V. Premium you can go for Axis A8105-E or A8207-VE





Do whatever you want to do man.

  

Delphinus
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  #2415756 10-Feb-2020 22:55
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We're probably going with 1054 between island due to space constraints, sure it will be fine.

 


Should I use my Ubiquiti wifi extender?
Considering ring video doorbell and a security camera kit (no subscription)

 

 

 

I would strongly recommend mocking up your kitchen/island setup with whatever you can, eg use some chairs, bits of wood, drag a table out somewhere and put it along side a bench exactly 1054 apart then do some pretend cooking in there, get stuff out of the fridge. Have 2 people working there. See what it's actually like. But also I just measured my kitchen space, which has a similar setup and its about 1200, you would probably be fine.

 

Although which way is the kitchen sink facing? Can you use that from the hob side? Looks like it's only from the dining table side which seems weird. I'd also put the dishwasher under/near the sink, so you can rinse stuff off then chuck it straight in the dishwasher.

 

 

 

Does your wifi extender use a cable or wireless for uplink? Put cables EVERYWHERE. More places than you might think. you'll not regret it. I've got 400m of cat6 in this place and use almost every single one of my 24 wall outlets for various things. Put cables in then put AP's on the end of those cables.


 
 
 

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Delphinus
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  #2415757 10-Feb-2020 22:58
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billgates:

 

IMO, you should not go for a living room setup if you are space and budget constrained. You will really appreciate space around your kitchen once you practically start using it. You want recommended 1.2m space between the kitchen cooktop island and main island. 1.05m is fine between drawer cabinet and side of main kitchen island.

 

The space of 873mm between main kitchen island and dining is not practical at all. The space between entry area and living is not practical at all. The space left between living and entry of media room is specially not practical at all. You should visualise things by using a measuring tape and place your  sofas between dining table, kitchen island etc where you currently live to give you an idea. If you are going to live here for a while, you want comfortable living. You are better off to just have a media room and kitchen with Pantry or scullery and design your plan around this.

 

 

I agree 100% with this. You're better off having fewer bigger rooms rather than a bunch of rooms with things all crammed in.


Rabbitcat
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  #2415858 11-Feb-2020 08:24
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The curse of the bigger house. 

 

33Coupe, 1054 between the island and other side is heaps.  We live in a house with 800 between, and somehow we've managed to survive, and in fact, enjoy living in our house and using our kitchen.  We have a glasshouse, large vege gardens, fruit trees etc, and we use our kitchen a lot.  

 

Pragmatic approach, with a dash of stoicism.


k14

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  #2415868 11-Feb-2020 08:52
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Although which way is the kitchen sink facing? Can you use that from the hob side? Looks like it's only from the dining table side which seems weird. I'd also put the dishwasher under/near the sink, so you can rinse stuff off then chuck it straight in the dishwasher.

 

 

This was my thought too. You will be doing a lot of walking between sink, dishwasher and cupboards when loading/unloading the dishwasher. For that matter the fridge is quite far out of the way too. Can you put it on the same wall as the oven?


nofam
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  #2415889 11-Feb-2020 09:08
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k14:

 

Although which way is the kitchen sink facing? Can you use that from the hob side? Looks like it's only from the dining table side which seems weird. I'd also put the dishwasher under/near the sink, so you can rinse stuff off then chuck it straight in the dishwasher.

 

 

This was my thought too. You will be doing a lot of walking between sink, dishwasher and cupboards when loading/unloading the dishwasher. For that matter the fridge is quite far out of the way too. Can you put it on the same wall as the oven?

 

 

 

 

Had the same thought. That space between island and back bench is adequate, but be aware that with your oven open door open (assuming it's a freestanding oven with hob on top?)  you'll be tight for room through there, and putting the dishwasher over where it might save you a little room, but you don't have a waste or water pipes there so there's extra expense.  I think you'd be better to put it next to your sink to share waste/water services and maybe push out that island by 100mm.

 

 

 

To be honest, as others have said, I think you're jamming too much into that footprint - if it were me I'd sacrifice the 4th bedroom to give everything more room, and put a study nook with bifold doors in the living area.  Unless of course you actually need 4 bedrooms.


Fred99
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  #2415962 11-Feb-2020 10:26
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nofam:

 

This was my thought too. You will be doing a lot of walking between sink, dishwasher and cupboards when loading/unloading the dishwasher. For that matter the fridge is quite far out of the way too. Can you put it on the same wall as the oven?

 

 

I think it's worse than that. I've cooked for a family gathering in a kitchen with more or less the same setup at that. Island bench with sinks, cooktop on opposing bench.  It was not good - there were kids around, they're behaving as kids do, going to/from the sink while your facing the cooktop doing what cooks do.  This wasn't a case of kids "running riot" - they were actually helping, peeling spuds etc on the island bench.   You can't see them behind you - if you're draining boiling water from a pot, you've got to do a 180 degree turn to get to the sink.  If you're adding stuff to a pot - same problem in reverse but at least you'd only risk dumping cold water - not boiling - over their heads as you trip over them.  

 

You need a sink near the cooktop, with a heat resistant bench area between.  Ideally dishwasher also close to the sink etc - but those are convenience issues - the cooktop and sink layout is a potential safety issue.  You need to change it - if you're set on the island bench then add an extra sink near the cooktop - or shift the cooktop to the island bench (that could be expensive - ventilation/rangehood options)

 

 


 
 
 
 

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Delphinus
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  #2415967 11-Feb-2020 10:38
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I'd just put the sink on the bench under the wall, left of the hob, which also makes it closer to the dishwasher.

 

Then leave the island as an island. Add a few power points to it, but don't worry about plumbing. Then you can use it more of a bar leaner, food prepping area, and serving area without a sink taking up all the space in the middle.

 

I'd drop the 4th bedroom unless essential, and use that space for bigger kitchen/dining/lounge. Why have floor sqm used up with an empty room, vs using it where you'll spend 90% of your waking time at home.  Could have a nice walk in pantry etc. And a better entranceway access.


33coupe

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  #2416014 11-Feb-2020 11:03
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Thanks for the replies, I know what you mean and was a bit concerned as well with space. The hob and sink location haven't been confirmed yet.

 

I think I have come up with an idea to solve the space issue. Could possibly just combine the island and dining table, and lose the bar stools.

 

There are quite a few ideas on google which look pretty great. I'll be back with another plan lol

 

 

 

Thanks for the info on wiring etc, my wifi extender is cabled, unsure where the modem will be and therefore where to put extender.

 

still no idea about family room and a/v gear. Have to wall mount tv and centre speaker and run cables through walls so need to get it right first time lol


Paul1977
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  #2416143 11-Feb-2020 13:24
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I wasn't going to comment on the specifics of the design as everyone likes different things, but I'm going to throw in my 2 cents anyway!

 

I tend to agree with some of the practicality and space issues raised by others.

 

Dishwasher should be close to sink if possible, and fridge not in and ideal position. I assume the sink is just drawn incorrectly and will be facing the other way.

 

You have loads of bench space, so I'd consider an oven tower rather than having the oven under the hobs.

 

I quite like your idea of attaching a dining area to the island. If you do then you could make the island itself as narrow as 610 as you don't need the extra depth of the breakfast bar (i.e. a 610 deep island with an additional dining area attached). I think this would be a great way to save space, but still have a family dining area. This would also allow you to increase the space between bench and island as well if you felt it needed it. This is a much better idea than trying to squeeze in a separate dining table where it probably just won't fit well.

 

There's no issues having the sink on the island opposite the hobs in my opinion. This is a very common configuration, and I think quite a stretch to label it a safety issue.


nofam
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  #2416171 11-Feb-2020 13:47
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Paul1977:

 

There's no issues having the sink on the island opposite the hobs in my opinion. This is a very common configuration, and I think quite a stretch to label it a safety issue.

 

 

 

 

Agreed - I had on a second sink on my main work space, but removed it specifically because I wanted the work room (I do a lot of baking).  So having my sink and hob at pretty much opposite ends of the space is not an issue at all, and it gives 3m of uninterrupted bench space.

 

 

 

 


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