2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

1 | ... | 1027 | 1028 | 1029 | 1030 | 1031 | 1032 | 1033 | 1034 | 1035 | 1036 | 1037 | ... | 2429

20520 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4798

#2590317 22-Oct-2020 16:39

I see the crew on the ship that the community case worked on, has tested positive https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/428955/two-covid-19-cases-confirmed-on-ship-suspected-over-new-zealand-case . Are we not testing crew on these ships when they come into NZ, eve if they remain on the ship? Sounds like another hole if NZers can go on the ship to do repairs etc, and there are crew with Covid, that could be coming into into some contact the crew, or with the same surfaces that the crew have been touching.

Scott3

4177 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2990

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2590329 22-Oct-2020 17:06

mattwnz:

Are we not testing crew on these ships when they come into NZ, eve if they remain on the ship?

Doubt it, given they don't step off the ship.

We don't even require NZ based international air crew be tested if they are deemed low or medium risk... And those crew are free to go straight into the community.

Definitely room to step up our game.

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2590345 22-Oct-2020 18:29

Buster: tdgeek. I'm not talking about the wider situation, but about a few hundred fishermen arriving on an isolated charter flight. Fishermen who have no interest in spending time or working on NZ soil.

They will be working on NZ soil. Our seas. Or we can tell our fishing industry to shut down, is that your option?

mattwnz

20520 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4798

#2590356 22-Oct-2020 18:56

tdgeek:

Buster: tdgeek. I'm not talking about the wider situation, but about a few hundred fishermen arriving on an isolated charter flight. Fishermen who have no interest in spending time or working on NZ soil.

They will be working on NZ soil. Our seas. Or we can tell our fishing industry to shut down, is that your option?

Isn't if false economy to risk another outbreak, based on a private companies needs for overseas workers? The outbreak , and lockdowns resulkting from the leaks, has potentially caused 60-100 billion of economic loss. But we don't really know how it is going to go in the next year. I can understand the need for importing this type of worker, because working on the sea is not easy. But some of these industries, such as fruit picking, simply don't pay enough to attract NZ workers.

The fact is that quarantining should work, if done properly. We do it with animals, and it seems very rare for their to be any breaches. But MIQ hotels doesn't appear to be up to the same level of quarantining as the Jet Park .

Maybe they said these workers self isolated 14 days prior to coming to NZ, but the fact that some cases were picked up with tests before they even boarded the plane, shows that that it doesn't look like 'self isolation' met the same standards as NZ's version of self isolation. The problem is that NZ can't trust the tests being done overseas, or peoples word. That is one reason why we have the 14 day MIQ in NZ as well.

mattwnz

20520 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4798

#2590362 22-Oct-2020 19:04

Scott3:

We don't even require NZ based international air crew be tested if they are deemed low or medium risk... And those crew are free to go straight into the community.

I thought they had changed that?

The fact is that the virus is coming into NZ on planes and ships, so you would think that a huge number of resources would be going into testing everyone that actually comes into NZ and/or comes in some form of contact with NZers. Eg NZ maintenance workers on ships.

Also I noticed that one of the new community cases caught the virus after only a few minutes of exposure with a case. As a result they weren't actually considered to be a close contact. So either the virus is becoming more contagious, or we need to change our definition of who a close contact is. I understand originally the MOH classed 10 minutes of exposure being required, to be considered a close contact, but that doesn't seem correct now.

It is interesting how this virus shows up more and more holes.

Oblivian

7345 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2117

ID Verified

#2590364 22-Oct-2020 19:17

mattwnz:

Also I noticed that one of the new community cases caught the virus after only a few minutes of exposure with a case. As a result they weren't actually considered to be a close contact. So either the virus is becoming more contagious, or we need to change our definition of who a close contact is. I understand originally the MOH classed 10 minutes of exposure being required, to be considered a close contact, but that doesn't seem correct now.

That has changed. Standup Q&A today. Although they only had a brief encounter in the office that was recalled. Turns out they BOTH worked on the ship on the SAME DAY. So transference at the office may not be the method.

It's the 3rd contact case where it is not clear and one to watch, if one of them passed it on. Or circled back around. Basically P0 is still not known.

The other two cases were announced on 21 October. One was a close work contact of the engineer and was already in quarantine as a precaution, having also been on the Sofrana Surville on 12 October.

The third case was described as a casual contact of the first case, but Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield said they could have been infected by either the engineer or the engineer's colleague, and investigations were continuing.

Mighty Ape

Shop now at Mighty Ape (affiliate link).

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2590366 22-Oct-2020 19:22

mattwnz:

Isn't if false economy to risk another outbreak, based on a private companies needs for overseas workers? The outbreak , and lockdowns resulkting from the leaks, has potentially caused 60-100 billion of economic loss. But we don't really know how it is going to go in the next year. I can understand the need for importing this type of worker, because working on the sea is not easy. But some of these industries, such as fruit picking, simply don't pay enough to attract NZ workers.

The fact is that quarantining should work, if done properly. We do it with animals, and it seems very rare for their to be any breaches. But MIQ hotels doesn't appear to be up to the same level of quarantining as the Jet Park .

Maybe they said these workers self isolated 14 days prior to coming to NZ, but the fact that some cases were picked up with tests before they even boarded the plane, shows that that it doesn't look like 'self isolation' met the same standards as NZ's version of self isolation. The problem is that NZ can't trust the tests being done overseas, or peoples word. That is one reason why we have the 14 day MIQ in NZ as well.

No its not false economy to risk another outbreak. 65000 through the border, it works. No we can't trust overseas controls, thats why we have MIQ, that works.

If you prefer to be 110% safe, we can shut out Kiwis, shut out the movie makers, shut out anyone else that we need for our economy, basically ensure that we are eradicated, 100% free of the virus, and shut out from the rest of the world. Bye tourism, bye fishing, bye orchards, bye students. Oh, and based on the general feel here, bye everything else, NZ can operate quite happily by being 100% shut off. Thats a Utopia. We can easily offset that by more taxes and no other way to cancel large portions of our economy.

Buster

297 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 164

#2590379 22-Oct-2020 19:53

tdgeek:

No its not false economy to risk another outbreak. 65000 through the border, it works. No we can't trust overseas controls, thats why we have MIQ, that works.

If you prefer to be 110% safe, we can shut out Kiwis, shut out the movie makers, shut out anyone else that we need for our economy, basically ensure that we are eradicated, 100% free of the virus, and shut out from the rest of the world. Bye tourism, bye fishing, bye orchards, bye students. Oh, and based on the general feel here, bye everything else, NZ can operate quite happily by being 100% shut off. Thats a Utopia. We can easily offset that by more taxes and no other way to cancel large portions of our economy.

Ok, but I was fairly amazed back in early May when there were ~80,000 new cases per day. Twice in the last seven days it has been >400,000 cases per day. This is getting worse worldwide quite quickly so ratio of imports who test positive is only going to go in one direction. Things can get way way worse for the sake of a bit of business.

mattwnz

20520 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4798

#2590466 22-Oct-2020 20:55

tdgeek:

No its not false economy to risk another outbreak. 65000 through the border, it works. No we can't trust overseas controls, thats why we have MIQ, that works.

Except MIQ has failed a few times. One was 'bin gate', the other was 'lift gate' ,and also the second outbreak may have been a case that got through MIQ,. We are just lucky that liftgate and bin gate was contained.

International tourism is essentially dead, even in countries living with the virus. At least NZ has a local tourism economy which still makes up I heard about 60% of our tourism sector, and probably more now, considering NZers can't go offshore.

mattwnz

20520 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4798

#2590496 23-Oct-2020 01:01

One of NZs top epidemiologist Sir David Skegg is concerned at the level of complacency the New Zealand public and government is showing towards Covid-19 since the country reverted to alert level 1.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018769516/new-covid-fears-in-auckland

This is a 20 minute interview that everyone should listen to. I understand he was the main person behind the elimination strategy.

It seems that it could be luck if we end up with big clusters or not. So far I think we have been lucky.

Also goes on about the situation in Christchurch with these workers, with them being double bedded, which contradicts the principles of quarantine. He thinks that is all risky. PPE used by hotel workers only reduces the risk of being infected, it doesn't eliminate the risk.

The government IMO is giving the wrong message and we need to change our behaviour. eg We need to wear masks, and everyone should be scanning when going in. Scanning has dropped off significantly.

Complacency IMO is going to put parts of NZ back into lockdown before Christmas..

Batman

Mad Scientist
30014 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6217

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2590502 23-Oct-2020 06:19

mattwnz:
One of NZs top epidemiologist Sir David Skegg is concerned at the level of complacency the New Zealand public and government is showing towards Covid-19 since the country reverted to alert level 1.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018769516/new-covid-fears-in-auckland

This is a 20 minute interview that everyone should listen to. I understand he was the main person behind the elimination strategy.

It seems that it could be luck if we end up with big clusters or not. So far I think we have been lucky.

Also goes on about the situation in Christchurch with these workers, with them being double bedded, which contradicts the principles of quarantine. He thinks that is all risky. PPE used by hotel workers only reduces the risk of being infected, it doesn't eliminate the risk.

The government IMO is giving the wrong message and we need to change our behaviour. eg We need to wear masks, and everyone should be scanning when going in. Scanning has dropped off significantly.

Complacency IMO is going to put parts of NZ back into lockdown before Christmas..

Interestingly the guardian has an article in the same vein

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/22/ardern-urged-to-review-covid-measures-after-election-landslide

Geekzone

Want to support Geekzone and browse the site without the ads? Subscribe to Geekzone now (monthly, annual and lifetime options).

GV27

5978 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#2590509 23-Oct-2020 06:50

mattwnz:

Except MIQ has failed a few times. One was 'bin gate', the other was 'lift gate' ,and also the second outbreak may have been a case that got through MIQ,. We are just lucky that liftgate and bin gate was contained.

I don't know if I'd consider those 'failures' of MIQ - the failures are more the mingling of new arrivals with people about to leave, people wandering in and out undetected and the issues with separating workers from MIQ from working in other areas (e.g. healthcare workers). I'd say it's working a lot better than it did before.

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2590513 23-Oct-2020 07:15

mattwnz:

tdgeek:

No its not false economy to risk another outbreak. 65000 through the border, it works. No we can't trust overseas controls, thats why we have MIQ, that works.

Except MIQ has failed a few times. One was 'bin gate', the other was 'lift gate' ,and also the second outbreak may have been a case that got through MIQ,. We are just lucky that liftgate and bin gate was contained.

International tourism is essentially dead, even in countries living with the virus. At least NZ has a local tourism economy which still makes up I heard about 60% of our tourism sector, and probably more now, considering NZers can't go offshore.

A few times over 65000 arrivals? Its not a prison. Or maybe they need to be prisons, ban Kiwis returning etc, if the ONLY thing you want is perfection. Local tourism is in strife, lack of workers, same for fishing same for fruit but who cares?

1101

3141 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1143

#2590539 23-Oct-2020 09:17

If we want a 100% closed boarder , we effectively 100% shut down the economy.

All our imports : goods we need : petrol ,medicine etc Thats comes in at a real risk . They come in on foriegn ships & planes

All our EXPORTS , we have to put those goods on foreign ships & foreign planes , ships with foreign low paid workers . That comes at a real risk
How long before a covid infected ship has a few of the crew trying to sneak off it to safety in NZ .

So its a balancing act . We cant close the boarders , despite what some are saying .
Close the boarders & the country shrivels and dies economically and then socially .
Close the boarders & see how long we last without petrol etc .

tdgeek

30048 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9455

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2590544 23-Oct-2020 09:27

1101:

If we want a 100% closed boarder , we effectively 100% shut down the economy.

All our imports : goods we need : petrol ,medicine etc Thats comes in at a real risk . They come in on foriegn ships & planes

All our EXPORTS , we have to put those goods on foreign ships & foreign planes , ships with foreign low paid workers . That comes at a real risk
How long before a covid infected ship has a few of the crew trying to sneak off it to safety in NZ .

So its a balancing act . We cant close the boarders , despite what some are saying .
Close the boarders & the country shrivels and dies economically and then socially .
Close the boarders & see how long we last without petrol etc .

Yes, but we can import and export still, although how do we manage ship workers that unload product into our ports? And those that arrive here to pickup our exports?

Its clear from some here that we need to make the border 100% tight so we have to close them to Kiwis, and movie makers, and students, and needed workers for hotels and fruit pickers so we can just treat all those industries as International tourism is, finished. Move to a 100% local economy

Satisfies the negative negators here but it is totally unrealistic

Manage the risk, and we are doing that well

1 | ... | 1027 | 1028 | 1029 | 1030 | 1031 | 1032 | 1033 | 1034 | 1035 | 1036 | 1037 | ... | 2429