2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2851198 15-Jan-2022 18:39

It does look like T-Cells are a more resilient protection against severe disease.
Even if SARS-Cov2 sneaks past antibodies or levels of antibodies fade.

T Cells Might Be Our Bodies’ Best Shot Against Omicron
The new variant may undermine some vaccine-derived defenses. But the immune system’s best assassins are likely to hold the line.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/12/t-cells-omicron-vaccine-immunity/620995/

NY breakthrough infections grow sevenfold, but unvaccinated 13 times more likely to wind up in hospital: COVID-19 updates
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2022/01/11/covid-omicron-variant-pfizer-cases/9165512002/

Maybe vaccination is doing good enough job if it keeps you out of Hospital ?

Problem is protecting the immune compromised, cancer patients and people who need operations that can't wait.
Maybe getting a stent is your primary health need, but SARS-Cov2 on top is not going to help.
Renal problems and need dialysis, milder covid may not be much comfort.

Its a numbers game where more the spread the bigger the mess.
If you still have 10-20% delta in the background you are not contact tracing and suppressing it.

Sup

366 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 249

#2851202 15-Jan-2022 19:07

ezbee:

It does look like the more resilient protection against severe disease is T-Cells and other parts of immune system.
Even if SARS-Cov2 sneaks past antibodies or levels of antibodies fade.

T Cells Might Be Our Bodies’ Best Shot Against Omicron
The new variant may undermine some vaccine-derived defenses. But the immune system’s best assassins are likely to hold the line.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/12/t-cells-omicron-vaccine-immunity/620995/

NY breakthrough infections grow sevenfold, but unvaccinated 13 times more likely to wind up in hospital: COVID-19 updates
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2022/01/11/covid-omicron-variant-pfizer-cases/9165512002/

Maybe vaccination is doing good enough job if it keeps you out of Hospital ?

Problem is protecting the immune compromised, cancer patients and people who need operations that can't wait.
Maybe getting a stent is your primary health need, but SARS-Cov2 on top is not going to help.
Renal problems and need dialysis, milder covid may not be much comfort.

Its a numbers game where more the spread the bigger the mess.
If you still have 10-20% delta in the background you are not contact tracing and suppressing it.

Yes the world has lost sight of the reality that the vaccines still work extremely well because of the T cell response. The vaccines have sustained a ninety percent protection against serious disease no matter what variant they have encountered.

Chasing after the shorter term sterilizing effects of the vaccines is a false economy.

This is even begs the question as to why we need a bespoke vaccine, when after a few months the antibodies will wane and we will still be talking about T cell immunity.

I guess what I am saying is it is good news and we are just looking past the reality, that people on the whole have to go through a Flu like illness and carry on with hybrid immunity.

You make a good point about people who are immuno compromised and needing boosts, I hope this can be mitigated by therapeutics longer term.

Speaking of which, we really need to see what happens to vaccinated populations when you make billions of courses of Paxlovid available in terms of illness severity and hospitalizations.

I am happy to go with the advice of the New Zealand vaccine advisory as always, ultimately I trust their guidance.

There is an interesting new study being talked about on the 'This week in Virology' Youtube channel T.W.I.V.

- essentially the claim that vaccines do not help stop you passing on the virus are rubbish, the original study was wrong, it looked at viral load rather than the specific infectivity of the viral particles that are shed by a vaccinated person.

I think we know this already in New Zealand, we outran Delta with vaccines. Clearly human behavior is a massive driver of the global omicron surge and the lack of coverage of the kids.

Omicron is exposing what happens when you talk about 80-90% fully vaccinated, while you have millions of children you are not counting....and while you relax over Christmas and New Year because your people are double jabbed.

Keep the masks on, keep the Red setting when omicron hits, and hope that kids are done by then...and we will see a different omicron outbreak here to everywhere else most likely.

The problem with omicron is that you cannot let massive clouds of the virus exist in public where there are lots of people. More of the same then, tight restrictions, masks everywhere, and try to hold it at the border till the kids are covered.

Just keep swimming...

Oblivian

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#2851342 16-Jan-2022 10:06

As much as this is meant to be a finger point at the system. The AV crowd will leave bits out and make it support them

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-man-fights-for-vaccine-exemption-after-terrible-eight-weeks-after-first-dose/PZZMFQOP3IM2MGMW3LTHM7A4P4/

Rikkitic

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#2851363 16-Jan-2022 10:39

Oblivian: As much as this is meant to be a finger point at the system. The AV crowd will leave bits out and make it support them

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-man-fights-for-vaccine-exemption-after-terrible-eight-weeks-after-first-dose/PZZMFQOP3IM2MGMW3LTHM7A4P4/

It is unfortunate that situations like this arise and you are right, the anti-vaxers will jump on it just as they jump on every other adverse reaction out of thousands of good ones. I suspect some of the inflexibility of the system may have to do with the exceptional demands on it at this time, but there really needs to be a more humane element for dealing with this kind of thing.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Sup

366 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 249

#2851379 16-Jan-2022 11:51

Oblivian: As much as this is meant to be a finger point at the system. The AV crowd will leave bits out and make it support them

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-man-fights-for-vaccine-exemption-after-terrible-eight-weeks-after-first-dose/PZZMFQOP3IM2MGMW3LTHM7A4P4/

Tricky one, without all the information and looking at this at face value, he should be given an exemption until his MRI results are known.

He is a classic case having had pericarditis, of someone who is at risk. I do not see the problem in letting him have a scan and covering him till the results are through.

His overall symptom profile, the cardiac arrhythmia the description of muscle aches, is compelling, he probably did have myocarditis.

One of the problems with myocarditis of course is the transient nature.

I can understand the ministries risk versus benefits decision, he is a higher risk from Covid generally, and not withstanding an increased myocarditis risk times four from a Covid infection.

Still, the MRI might be compelling. Therefore wait.

Just keep swimming...

Batman

Mad Scientist
30014 posts

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#2851386 16-Jan-2022 11:54

Rikkitic:

Oblivian: As much as this is meant to be a finger point at the system. The AV crowd will leave bits out and make it support them

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-man-fights-for-vaccine-exemption-after-terrible-eight-weeks-after-first-dose/PZZMFQOP3IM2MGMW3LTHM7A4P4/

It is unfortunate that situations like this arise and you are right, the anti-vaxers will jump on it just as they jump on every other adverse reaction out of thousands of good ones. I suspect some of the inflexibility of the system may have to do with the exceptional demands on it at this time, but there really needs to be a more humane element for dealing with this kind of thing.

so easy to solve. just do the mri already. then we will know. but i guess you have to wait wait wait wait to get your turn.

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SJB

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#2851388 16-Jan-2022 12:00

Cases in the UK plummeting although still high. 80,000+ from 130,000+ in a couple of days.

Batman

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#2851389 16-Jan-2022 12:11

i read an article yesterday NSW (?) chief medical officer expecting cases to peak some time between end of Jan and mid Feb

Ge0rge

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#2851395 16-Jan-2022 12:27

The 1PM is going to be interesting today.

cddt

1973 posts

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#2851404 16-Jan-2022 13:28

I have had two doses, but am hesitating on the third since I had several days of chest pain and heart palpitations after the second dose. I received the dose immediately before the August lockdown, so when I had these symptoms we were in the first days of lockdown, I couldn't get in to see the GP, and was under a huge amount of pressure at work and home, so I was unable to get it assessed (have since left that terrible job). Fortunately it cleared up after about two weeks, but I am extremely reluctant to go through that again.

My brother (overseas) just had his third dose and has also suffered severe chest pains for several days - also wasn't able to get assessed due to being in the middle of the omicron wave and all healthcare services overwhelmed.

I am far from an anti-vaxxer (registered for this one as soon as I was eligible, always pay extra to get unfunded vaccinations for my children, always get flu jab), but am struggling to find guidance or reassurance in my situation.

Batman

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#2851405 16-Jan-2022 13:38

wow northland is not wanting to get vaccinated or what

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-data-and-statistics/covid-19-vaccine-data

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GV27

5978 posts

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#2851410 16-Jan-2022 13:57

So another Omi incursion into Auckland via MIQ? Just... fantastic stuff.

ezbee

2659 posts

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#2851465 16-Jan-2022 14:25

I suppose in MIQ the higher the density of cases the bigger the viral plumes stalking the halls.

At least the MIQ worker 'should' be triple vaccinated by now so unlikely to be spready ?

Taiwan has upped its measures to completing testing at airport to filter out immediate cases.
Before transfer to more secure isolation or hotel isolation where you get the day 3 tests etc.

I note in the RNZ data visualizations about 3/4 down the page.
Of International arrivals 16.52% are not vaccinated.
We presume all cases at the border are fully vaccinated, but that is not how its is.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/450874/covid-19-data-visualisations-nz-in-numbers

Would 16.52% all be children, only 6.7% are exempt from testing before travel, hopefully no adults in that number ?
Or a mix given we have sports stars, entertainers and special people ?

Sup

366 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 249

#2851468 16-Jan-2022 14:47

cddt:

I have had two doses, but am hesitating on the third since I had several days of chest pain and heart palpitations after the second dose. I received the dose immediately before the August lockdown, so when I had these symptoms we were in the first days of lockdown, I couldn't get in to see the GP, and was under a huge amount of pressure at work and home, so I was unable to get it assessed (have since left that terrible job). Fortunately it cleared up after about two weeks, but I am extremely reluctant to go through that again.

My brother (overseas) just had his third dose and has also suffered severe chest pains for several days - also wasn't able to get assessed due to being in the middle of the omicron wave and all healthcare services overwhelmed.

I am far from an anti-vaxxer (registered for this one as soon as I was eligible, always pay extra to get unfunded vaccinations for my children, always get flu jab), but am struggling to find guidance or reassurance in my situation.

As I am sure you are aware, the best thing for you to do is to discuss this with a trusted health professional and go from there.

I steer clear from telling people in specific situations what to do about medicines, especially a more complicated picture.

It is worth finding out at least, what the professional advice says. Whatever you do, I would urge you not to just sit on it and live with this decision in our own mind without external advice.

As you are probably aware, there is also a risk with myocarditis from Covid, and that risk is greater than from the vaccine (again I am talking generally here rather than commenting on your unique risk factors).

Therefore for other people generally, the idea of having myocarditis, as a known risk factor, from two possible causes (Covid vs injection induced) raises the question....if you were able to choose how you get myocarditis...would you choose it as a independent issue, or as an issue that is experienced while your system is being assaulted by Covid 19, rhetorical, I am just using a example of the risks versus benefits calculations that qualified health care professionals make based of evidenced based practice.

See your Doc. And if you don't feel listened too, see someone else as well.

Just keep swimming...

Sup

366 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 249

#2851470 16-Jan-2022 14:54

ezbee:

I suppose in MIQ the higher the density of cases the bigger the viral plumes stalking the halls.

At least the MIQ worker 'should' be triple vaccinated by now so unlikely to be spready ?

Taiwan has upped its measures to completing testing at airport to filter out immediate cases.
Before transfer to more secure isolation or hotel isolation where you get the day 3 tests etc.

I note in the RNZ data visualizations about 3/4 down the page.
Of International arrivals 16.52% are not vaccinated.
We presume all cases at the border are fully vaccinated, but that is not how its is.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/450874/covid-19-data-visualisations-nz-in-numbers

Would 16.52% all be children, only 6.7% are exempt from testing before travel, hopefully no adults in that number ?
Or a mix given we have sports stars, entertainers and special people ?

No New Zealand citizens (all ages) are required to enter the country vaccinated. Only foreign nationals.

And yeah the majority of that stat will be kids.

Shame we have not mandated vaccines for al in this country, it would have solved our pandemic crises overnight.

Just keep swimming...

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