2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2446724 25-Mar-2020 22:29

iamaelephant:

Of all the sacrifices being made over the next few months, food waste is the least of anyone's concerns. It sounds like you have a dog in this race, what's your real concern?

My concern is that supermarkets are the highest risk location for infection during the lockdown. Spreading the load, and reducing the number of customer at the supermarket would be seen to be desirable for me.

Especially if the Requirement for Asain supermarkets to close (source: Melissa Lee) is true. Everybody who previously shopped at Tai Ping and the likes will now need to go to countdown and the likes.

Currently Supermarkets seem to be struggling as seem by the plee's to "shop normally" and item limits.

Ironically the item limits make it impossible for many to do their normal weekly shop, and as such will require more frequent shopping visits.

Further, the closure of the Hospo industry, butchers, bakers etc, will mean that many that frequently used those services will need to buy far more than "normal" at the supermarket to not go hungry. None of this is a problem if the supermarkets can handle the extra load.

Hopefully everything can calm down in the next couple of days, and item limits can be removed at supermarkets, hence allowing households to do weekly shops, reducing the number of people in the supermarkets.

dejadeadnz

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#2446725 25-Mar-2020 22:31

Handle9:

One of the fundamental rights of a citizen is to allow them to enter their own country. While it may not meet the textbook definition it meets the functional definition. Playing semantic games is dumb.

You are getting a off-track if you believe that there's an absolute and inalienable right to enter one's own country. In the international context, Article 12(4) of the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights (to which NZ is a signatory) states as follows:

No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.

I agree that in the present context, there is insufficient justification to deny NZ citizens right of entry but in the event that things get bad enough, different matter. What is "bad enough" I don't have sufficient expertise in international law to talk about but it's absolutely clear that the right of entry is not absolute. In the domestic law context, NZ courts have been absolutely clear that in the absence of any supreme constitution, Parliament is, barring some very rare exceptions, free to pass any laws it pleases, including those that violate the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and NZ's international law commitments. Section 4 of the NZBORA is also significant.

I go back a point that I've made previously: if people want to do their bit so that things don't ugly enough that options like denying NZ citizen entry become mainstream, just observe the health advisories and make some minor sacrifices. Most people (and I am sure you are one of them) don't object to this but there seems to be a sizable minority who want to worry about where they can get their next protein bar, why X can get easy access to a beach and they can't, or where one can buy organic fruit.

Azzura

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#2446728 25-Mar-2020 22:34

COVID Pandemic Exposes the Ugly Secrets Hidden in America’s Healthcare System:

Medical Assistant, CA: “After a Zoom meeting where we were told we no longer needed to wear PPE if we were not within two feet of an ill patient, I asked the director of health services in our healthcare system running the meeting if exceptions could be made for those individuals who were immune-compromised like myself, since I had just returned to work after a short leave due to treatment for breast cancer. His response: 'Do you think having cancer makes you special? If you don’t agree with these recommendations then you can self-elect to use PTO and stay at home.'”

Ge0rge

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#2446730 25-Mar-2020 22:43

mattwnz:
iamaelephant:
Of all the sacrifices being made over the next few months, food waste is the least of anyone's concerns. It sounds like you have a dog in this race, what's your real concern?

My concern is long term supply and I hate food being wasted without good reason, especially as many aren't able to afford good food. People are going to struggle too as it is, and food banks are also running out of food, and that food could go to them.https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/412593/food-banks-face-covid-19-lockdown-issues-demand-high-supplies-low

We don't also want to end up needing ration books either, especially if supplies become an issue due to previous panic buying which they hadn't planned for . We do also need to remember that access to good healthy food is going to be very important in keeping healthy through this, and fighting off any illness as we head into winter.

There are currently two separate teams who's sole job is ensuring supply chain security and continuity at a national level. If we all just relax and do our individual bit, we'll all be ok.

dejadeadnz

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#2446737 25-Mar-2020 23:09

mattwnz:

We do also need to remember that access to good healthy food is going to be very important in keeping healthy through this, and fighting off any illness as we head into winter.

My god quit with the nonsense. There's plenty of good and healthy food available and as @Ge0rge said, there are plenty of people working hard at maintaining that. It might not be what you like but that's a different issue.

Issues with food bank and the like will, I am sure, be addressed. Niche/small scale suppliers usually aren't who you look to to fix temporary supply chain hiccups.

Handle9

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#2446740 25-Mar-2020 23:12

dejadeadnz:

Handle9:

One of the fundamental rights of a citizen is to allow them to enter their own country. While it may not meet the textbook definition it meets the functional definition. Playing semantic games is dumb.

You are getting a off-track if you believe that there's an absolute and inalienable right to enter one's own country. In the international context, Article 12(4) of the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights (to which NZ is a signatory) states as follows:

No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.

I agree that in the present context, there is insufficient justification to deny NZ citizens right of entry but in the event that things get bad enough, different matter. What is "bad enough" I don't have sufficient expertise in international law to talk about but it's absolutely clear that the right of entry is not absolute. In the domestic law context, NZ courts have been absolutely clear that in the absence of any supreme constitution, Parliament is, barring some very rare exceptions, free to pass any laws it pleases, including those that violate the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and NZ's international law commitments. Section 4 of the NZBORA is also significant.

I go back a point that I've made previously: if people want to do their bit so that things don't ugly enough that options like denying NZ citizen entry become mainstream, just observe the health advisories and make some minor sacrifices. Most people (and I am sure you are one of them) don't object to this but there seems to be a sizable minority who want to worry about where they can get their next protein bar, why X can get easy access to a beach and they can't, or where one can buy organic fruit.

The original point was around refusing the right to enter their own country effectively renders a person stateless - ie they have no right to reside anywhere. That stands. As does the point semantic games are dumb, particularly regarding to your last paragraph.

dejadeadnz

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#2446745 25-Mar-2020 23:23

I am not too keen on that particular debate as, from my vantage point, you've got two opposing sides that are getting way too worked up over a relatively theoretical debate. To illustrate the point, even if NZ somehow were to deny right of entry to its own citizens (Columbia has already done this in fact -- I state this purely as a matter of fact and not as an endorsement of the action), there are countries (and NZ is one of them) where unconditional extension to temporary visas are being granted. So it's very unlikely that anyone will be left fundamentally unwanted or without any substantive protection of a modern state for any sustained period. I am sure there are Columbian citizens in NZ right now and even non-citizens are receiving assistance in the event they can't find temporary accommodation.

Edit: I do have to add (and this isn't just a point of semantics but a substantive legal point): under international law, NZ consulates remain obliged to assist NZ passport holders that are travelling with that passport even if they somehow can't re-enter and that really doesn't line up with statelessness. My honest suggestion is that everyone just get away from that pointless and emotive debate because no matter how strongly each party asserts that they are entirely right, it's really not panning out that way.

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vexxxboy

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#2446748 25-Mar-2020 23:32

mattwnz:

iamaelephant:
Of all the sacrifices being made over the next few months, food waste is the least of anyone's concerns. It sounds like you have a dog in this race, what's your real concern?

My concern is long term supply and I hate food being wasted without good reason, especially as many aren't able to afford good food. People are going to struggle too as it is, and food banks are also running out of food, and that food could go to them.https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/412593/food-banks-face-covid-19-lockdown-issues-demand-high-supplies-low

We don't also want to end up needing ration books either, especially if supplies become an issue due to previous panic buying which they hadn't planned for . We do also need to remember that access to good healthy food is going to be very important in keeping healthy through this, and fighting off any illness as we head into winter.

you have to remember that all the food that went to Restaurants, Cafes etc will now end up at Supermarkets, dont think supplies will run out quite yet

Common sense is not as common as you think.

Handle9

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#2446750 25-Mar-2020 23:40

dejadeadnz:

I am not too keen on that particular debate as, from my vantage point, you've got two opposing sides that are getting way too worked up over a relatively theoretical debate. To illustrate the point, even if NZ somehow were to deny right of entry to its own citizens (Columbia has already done this in fact -- I state this purely as a matter of fact and not as an endorsement of the action), there are countries (and NZ is one of them) where unconditional extension to temporary visas are being granted. So it's very unlikely that anyone will be left fundamentally unwanted or without any substantive protection of a modern state for any sustained period. I am sure there are Columbian citizens in NZ right now and even non-citizens are receiving assistance in the event they can't find temporary accommodation.

Edit: I do have to add (and this isn't just a point of semantics but a substantive legal point): under international law, NZ consulates remain obliged to assist NZ passport holders that are travelling with that passport even if they somehow can't re-enter and that really doesn't line up with statelessness. My honest suggestion is that everyone just get away from that pointless and emotive debate because no matter how strongly each party asserts that they are entirely right, it's really not panning out that way.

Fundamentally the Lord of the Flies attitude needs to stop. The BS about people who are abroad are somehow second class "because they had their chance" when many of them (I am not included in this) are stuck abroad is stupid and fundamentally incorrect.

Handle9

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#2446753 25-Mar-2020 23:48

The New Zealand government is doing a really impressive job at the moment. We had a conference call with the New Zealand Consul General here in Dubai this morning. It was purely an update call to make sure everyone knew who to call and where to go if there were problems. Public servants get a really bad rap but MFAT and foreign affairs are pretty impresive to deal with.

David Parker has been particularly active in working with government officials and airlines to keep New Zealands key trade routes open.

New Zealanders abroad should be aware that +64 9 920 2020 is the best number to call for COVID-19 related topics. Ministry of Health, legal support and other required support can be accessed.

dejadeadnz

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#2446754 25-Mar-2020 23:49

There are legitimate criticisms that I certainly would direct at anyone who was travelling by choice or allowed to travel by their workplaces for anything other than absolutely essential reasons (and I don't classify, for example, wanting to attend weddings and the like as essential) over the last few weeks. Like I said, I don't see this as currently warranting the draconian step of not being allowed to re-enter the country because it's not a proportionate response. But some of the anger directed at some of the travelling crowd is not beyond understanding, even accepting for the moment that not all those travelers deserve criticism.

openmedia

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#2446756 26-Mar-2020 00:02

After midnight.. covid19.org.nz still says level 3..

So.. I'm worried the NZ Government can't tell the time, or perhaps the change is in UTC.

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

Handle9

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#2446758 26-Mar-2020 00:07

openmedia:
After midnight.. covid19.org.nz still says level 3..

So.. I'm worried the NZ Government can't tell the time, or perhaps the change is in UTC.

Great post. On point and constructive.

I'm really over people sniping at the government and public service. They are doing an impossible job in incredibly difficult circumstances and they don't deserve this sort of crap.

mattwnz

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#2446764 26-Mar-2020 00:18

I think people just need to calm down, and be nicer to one another on here .

Listen to the Prime Minister.

Be Kind.

Handle9

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#2446767 26-Mar-2020 00:31

mattwnz:

I think people just need to calm down, and be nicer to one another on here .

Listen to the Prime Minister.

Be Kind.

Being kind means the need to think of others, not just themselves.

As the spread of the virus escalates so does the anti-social and ridiculous behaviour. A friend in Qatar had one of their neighbours calling to tell them that another neighbour had COVID19 and would they support getting them removed. No evidence, no thought, just fear driving behaviour.

There is this type of behaviour on this thread. I have no problem with debate over issues but when it's petty or getting nasty I will call it out. If Mauricio or the mods have an issue with it I'm ok with being moderated, it's their show.

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