2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2450323 30-Mar-2020 22:16

Willowbank Distillery / Dunedin Distillery/ Thomson Whisky / Cardrona Distillery, ya listening?

No more liquor, only hand sanitizer at this distillery

Los Angeles Times

Fred99

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#2450325 30-Mar-2020 22:22

bmt:

My argument has merit full stop. Once again;

1. Yes, Australia's policy of taxing Kiwis but not offering (previously) social welfare support is sucky, but this is FULLY overridden by the fact that,

2. It is a known policy, anybody moving from New Zealand to Australia to live and work takes on all risk that if they lose their job there is no safety net.

This is not a new policy, if people choose to go there then they choose to take the risk.

It might do on sovereignty / legal grounds, but on humanitarian grounds it sucks - big time.

Especially so as Scummo worships the invisible man in the sky, but as with the rest of the global plague of evangelical extremist scum, would never ever stop to think what Jesus might have done.

(I'm an ordained minister of the Church of the FSM - and as far as I'm concerned Jesus was a great pirate)

iamaelephant

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#2450326 30-Mar-2020 22:30

Could we possibly take this irrelevant discussion of Australia's treatment of NZ visa holders somewhere else?

freitasm

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#2450327 30-Mar-2020 22:32

gzt:

freitasm:

One has to laugh at people staying in quarantine at a four-star hotel, with ability to select meals from a menu, complaining it's "prison-like".

Bring on the smallest violin.

I have not read the article. Dont know anything about the place. Hotel food can be really awful. Menu selection can be very limited. Hotel star and restaurant star are two different things. So many places just focus on making things look like a fancy meal on a plate and actual food can be terrible.

And yet the person did not complain about the food. The food was ok, he said. He specifically complained about not being allowed to leave.

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#2450328 30-Mar-2020 22:40

freitasm:

One has to laugh at people staying in quarantine at a four-star hotel, with ability to select meals from a menu, complaining it's "prison-like".

Bring on the smallest violin.

I wonder if the Presidential Suite in the Intercontinental in Wellington is available?

Fred99

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#2450329 30-Mar-2020 22:41

iamaelephant: Could we possibly take this irrelevant discussion of Australia's treatment of NZ visa holders somewhere else?

We could - but it's a serious issue with particular relevance to how NZ deals with repatriation and care of our fellow citizens.

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#2450330 30-Mar-2020 22:48

bmt:

I personally can't think of a reason to do much about that except maybe people that moved with their families as kids but aren't a resident or citizen yet. If somebody actively chooses to move to Australia it is well known there is no welfare safety net, and they do so at their own risk. I have no sympathy for these people given what is now playing out. Personal responsibility!!!

This is one of the funniest things I've read in a long time.

Personal responsibility!

No one can travel. No one can work. No one can do anything but remain in place.

But Personal responsibility!

We are in exceptional times. The usual fortune cookie wisdom doesn't make any sense. We are having to take collective action with socialisation of providing incomes and supporting businesses. Where is the personal responsibility for businesses? Where is the personal responsibility for those who would otherwise lose their job? This is disruption to society on a mass scale and requires exceptional responses.

Cries of personal responsibility are more than a little bizarre.

neb

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#2450332 30-Mar-2020 22:54

freitasm:
And yet the person did not complain about the food. The food was ok, he said. He specifically complained about not being allowed to leave.

I've got to say, being locked in a hotel room would be pretty prison-like. Sure, you've got WiFi and better food, but apart from that you're in an impersonal space which consists of a bed and a small desk and not much more. It's not somewhere I'd want to be stuck for several weeks.

Fred99

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#2450334 30-Mar-2020 23:06

neb:
freitasm:

And yet the person did not complain about the food. The food was ok, he said. He specifically complained about not being allowed to leave.

I've got to say, being locked in a hotel room would be pretty prison-like. Sure, you've got WiFi and better food, but apart from that you're in an impersonal space which consists of a bed and a small desk and not much more. It's not somewhere I'd want to be stuck for several weeks.

I've never been a few weeks in ICU with a tube rammed down my throat to give me a 50/50 chance of living either, and just one selfish prick could condemn many others to that fate.

gzt

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#2450335 30-Mar-2020 23:09

neb:
freitasm:
And yet the person did not complain about the food. The food was ok, he said. He specifically complained about not being allowed to leave.

I've got to say, being locked in a hotel room would be pretty prison-like. Sure, you've got WiFi and better food, but apart from that you're in an impersonal space which consists of a bed and a small desk and not much more. It's not somewhere I'd want to be stuck for several weeks.

I heard something on the radio about people going out to buy food. Aircon + no exercise would drive me nuts I think.

dejadeadnz

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#2450337 30-Mar-2020 23:16

bmt:

My argument has merit full stop. Once again;

Typically when people resort to confident one-liners like this and simply assert a normative ethical position (i.e. that it is moral for a state of affairs to be X) by virtue of nothing more than "Well, you knew it was the case before going there!", it's a sure fire sign that the person has no argument. It's question begging and it's dumb. David Hume showed us why in the 18th century - congratulations: you're just nearly three centuries behind the curve.

Here are some examples of what people knew to be the normative response for actual or perceived moral transgressions in the past:

1. Thieves getting their limbs chopped off;

2. Women accused of adultery being stoned to death; and

3. Black people being prevented from marrying white people on the grounds of preventing miscegenation. Violators risked being lynched.

Going by your impeccable logic, it's difficult to understand why anyone bothered to be outraged about this. But, of course, when you apply some reason you understand why it can't be a serious and worthwhile normative ethical position to state that the thief had no valid complaints because he ought to know that the punishment was the norm. A reasonable person will conclude that the loss of a limb typically far exceeds the harm occasioned by a typical act of theft, the severing of limbs is a cruel and dehumanising process, and so forth.

There are powerful and significant arguments against the previous Australian policy -- the chief of which is that the Australian government was happy to compel the paying of taxes (beyond just the typical contractors/workers' income taxes), encourage people to settle in Australia (which meant they were not eligible to receive NZ welfare), but were happy to deprive these people of basic social welfare that other Australian residents were entitled to. Others have also raised the fact that the impact of COVID-19 was so sudden and jolting that no one could have reasonably foreseen its actual impact.

But let's give the last word to the Australians, shall we? Even they've realised -- despite past intransigence -- that this policy is unsustainable and has been softened.

I can also tell you what has merit: you should do less typing and more thinking.

Edit: Completed point 3.

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Fred99

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#2450338 30-Mar-2020 23:17

gzt:
neb:

I've got to say, being locked in a hotel room would be pretty prison-like. Sure, you've got WiFi and better food, but apart from that you're in an impersonal space which consists of a bed and a small desk and not much more. It's not somewhere I'd want to be stuck for several weeks.

I heard something on the radio about people going out to buy food. Aircon + no exercise would drive me nuts I think.

I actually most miss personal contact with family and friends. Sorry dude - I'm getting very sick and tired of hearing self-centred whining about "personal sacrifice" and loss of comforts. Get with the programme. It was never going to be easy.

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#2450343 30-Mar-2020 23:43

I think I'm gonna leave this theatre.

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Fred99

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#2450346 31-Mar-2020 00:21

Tinkerisk:

I think I'm gonna leave this theatre.

I'm going to ask you not to - I value your contribution.

Handle9

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#2450347 31-Mar-2020 00:29

neb:
freitasm:

And yet the person did not complain about the food. The food was ok, he said. He specifically complained about not being allowed to leave.

I've got to say, being locked in a hotel room would be pretty prison-like. Sure, you've got WiFi and better food, but apart from that you're in an impersonal space which consists of a bed and a small desk and not much more. It's not somewhere I'd want to be stuck for several weeks.

Here in the UAE you can leave your house to buy food/medication, go to work if it allowed and that is it. There is a curfew from 8pm to 6am. If you are caught out without a government issued pass during curfew it is an instant fine. There is no allowance to go out for exercise.

We were coping fine with social isolation, now it's getting much harder. The 30-60 minutes we used to escape for a walk made a huge difference. A hotel room would be orders of magnitude worse.

I didn't read the guy in the article as complaining, more commenting on what it was like. He didn't seem to saying "woe is me" he just said it was a bit like being in prison.

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