EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#1643009 29-Sep-2016 23:06

Heaps of EV news out today. (and expect more to follow, it's the paris auto show)

New Battery pack (41kWh) for Renault Zoe (Europe's most popular Electric car, available new in NZ) has been announced (current pack is 22kWh), plus other upgrades like slightly more motor power etc. Link. Gives 400km Range on the super optimistic European (NEDC) test. (I would guess more like 200km- 250km would be realistic in the real world)

LDV has announced they are bringing a full size Electric van (think ford transit size) to the electric market. It has a 75kWh battery capacity. Pricing hoped to be in the 60-70k mark (Significantly more than the diesel LDV V80, but similar to a ford transit, and much less than the much smaller renault kangoo pure electric van) Link

Rumours about an upgraded nissan leaf battery capacity continue. (Nissan and Renault have a design alliance, and I would pick a nissan announcement to be near now the renault announcement is out of the bag).

Industry sources indicate that NZ is going to move towards a european "type 2" charging system (much better for NZ than type given we have readily available three phase power, and that type 1 cannot support it). The european system works on a "bring your own cable" basis, public chargers have only a type 2 socket, and you plug your own cable into the charger, and the other end into your car (for nissan leaf's this is a type 1 to type 2 cable).

The three phase charging becomes more useful necessary with vehicles with big batteries like the tesla, and LDV van above. High current single phase loads are quite frowned upon in an industrial setting.

MikeB4

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#1643132 30-Sep-2016 09:46

I have info from Renault NZ regarding the Zoe which is a Nissan Leaf with Renault flare. It's a good car but expensive $65,000 +GST = $74,750. Has a 3 year 100,000 warranty and a 5 year battery warranty.

https://www.netcarshow.com/renault/2017-zoe/

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Linuxluver

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#1643137 30-Sep-2016 09:55

MikeB4:

I have info from Renault NZ regarding the Zoe which is a Nissan Leaf with Renault flare. It's a good car but expensive $65,000 +GST = $74,750. Has a 3 year 100,000 warranty and a 5 year battery warranty.

https://www.netcarshow.com/renault/2017-zoe/

This is the price for the new, 400km range, Zoe?

That's the one I'd buy.

We may see Renault locally sell off the earlier dealer-demo Zoes cheap.....both of them.

I don't mind the battery warranty as long as they commit to sell a new battery eventually if you need it replaced outside the warranty period. Nissan won't do this unless you're in the US in a handful of really HOT states where the battery fades quickly in the extreme heat.

A key point for anyone spending $70,000 on an EV going forward is to get that commitment to a full replacement battery - even at $5000 or whatever - if a replacement is needed. The lower maintanence costs for EVs generally would still result in such a purchase being justifiable....plus many people just love their cars (or any type). A couple of years ago I spent $3,500 getting my wife's old 1994 Honda repaired after a crash.....and the thing wasn't even worth $500 before the accident.

Kiwi cars can last 20 years and there is no reason an EV can't do the same with a new battery every 7-10 years.

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robjg63

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#1643167 30-Sep-2016 10:21

The latest generation EVs are certainly starting to get pretty good ranges now.

While the earlier ones might well be good for more 90% of the daily for most people's trips (say 80-100km), getting a range like 300km surely drops the range anxiety issue for nearly everyone.

One would hope the prices will start to drop a bit more if production ramps up.

Also - maybe quite a good thing we have (accidentally) adopted a nationwide charging plug standard.

Certainly agree with the comments about replacement batteries (and how to dispose of the old ones).While a car manufacturer might well only want a car to last 5 years - that shouldnt be something they can enforce with redundancy - or not supplying parts(batteries).

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

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#1643168 30-Sep-2016 10:23

A five year battery warranty is fine for me, typically I retain a vehicle for no more than three years, I tend to sell them while they have a current new car warranty. Going forward as I age this will change and I will be looking to keep a vehicle longer.

Electric has less moving parts to wear out so the battery life is key as is the initial price. I accept that early in any technology cycle means early takers will pay a premium, imagine if ICE was only entering the market now the price would be horrific.

Having said that $74,000+ for a small car is huge when the vehicle is the size of a Kia Rio that is sub $30,000.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

PolicyGuy

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#1643199 30-Sep-2016 11:00

MikeB4:

wellygary:

Its still a concept car, which means its at least 3 years away from production if at all......

For VW its simply a "please don't forget about me, and can we try not to mention that diesel thing...."

diesel thing? what diesel thing

IgNobel Prizes 2016 - http://www.improbable.com/ig/winners/#ig2016

CHEMISTRY PRIZE [GERMANY] — Volkswagen, for solving the problem of excessive automobile pollution emissions by automatically, electromechanically producing fewer emissions whenever the cars are being tested.
REFERENCE: "EPA, California Notify Volkswagen of Clean Air Act Violations", U.S. Environmental Protection Agency news release, September 18, 2015.

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#1643509 30-Sep-2016 20:39

Lots of EV appending at the Paris Auto show. I wish I was there.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/29/13104176/the-paris-motor-show-opens-amid-a-war-on-cars

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P1n3apqlExpr3ss

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#1643530 30-Sep-2016 21:44

With all the talk about battery longevity there's a company that runs a Tesla S between LA and Vegas as some sort of taxi service. It recently notched up 200k miles and the battery had only degraded by 6%; despite being charged to 100% rather than the typical 90%

Story here: https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tesla-model-s-at-200k-miles/

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#1643583 30-Sep-2016 23:52

MikeB4:

I have info from Renault NZ regarding the Zoe which is a Nissan Leaf with Renault flare. It's a good car but expensive $65,000 +GST = $74,750. Has a 3 year 100,000 warranty and a 5 year battery warranty.

https://www.netcarshow.com/renault/2017-zoe/

Renault Zoe is a distinct different car in most ways from the Nissan Leaf (although Nissan and Renault have a design alliance).

The Zoe is a class smaller than the leaf (Think Corolla/Mazda3 vs Yaris/Mazda2). Obviously better for parking in small places, but having lesser interior space.

The Zoe has a lower price point than the leaf, and is europe's most popular electric car

The Zoe's have a slightly less powerful air cooled motor than the Leaf's liquid cooled unit.

Renault has favored high power three phase AC charging using the motor inverter, and motor windings as inductors (some cars have 22kW charging (3phase x 32A x 230V), others have 44kW (3phase x 63A x 230V), I'm not sure what spec Renault NZ has)

Nissan has favored Low power AC charging, 3.3kW Standard (6.6kW option in UK only), with Chademo port for 50kW DC Fast charging.

Linuxluver:

This is the price for the new, 400km range, Zoe?

That's the one I'd buy.

That price is for the 22kWh battery Zoe (which will be continued to be offered).

The 41kWh battery Zoe was only announced yesterday, In europe it will cost about EUR2500 extra (I imagine the specifications with the bigger battery will be a very popular)

Pricing table here or here

I'm not sure what "Quick Charge" refers to, previously Renault has referred to the 44kW AC charging ability as "Fast Charge"

Be carefull with the 400km range number (That is the official range under the super optimistic NEDC rating system). Even Renault itself gives a "real world range" of 300km.

For example the 30kWh leaf is rated for 249km of range on the super optimistic NEDC rating system, as compared to 200km on the (still somewhat optimistic) EPA cycle. (although it is not possible to do a linear conversion, the NEDC ratings system is just bad)

As a comparison point the (scheduled for LHD only production late 2016) chevy bolt needs a 60kWh battery to get a 383km EPA rated range. It seems improbable that the similar size (but 150kg lighter) Zoe would do the same range with a 41kWh battery.

robjg63:

Also - maybe quite a good thing we have (accidentally) adopted a nationwide charging plug standard.

NZTA charging standards recommendation has been released today (Non-mandatory, but should provide a clear direction the the market)

http://www.nzta.govt.nz/planning-and-investment/planning/planning-for-electric-vehicles/national-guidance-for-public-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure/charging-point-connectors/

Note the tesla plug shown is wrong (it is for the single phase markets of the US and Japan only). UK and Australian market tesla's have a type 2 socket instead. Most Tesla's in NZ have come in direct from tesla australia as new but grey market import cars.

AC public charging (slow & fast) is (recommended) to be handled with a Type 2 socket (Euro style bring your own cord).

DC fast charging (fast) is (recommended) to be handled by dual cord stations with tethered Chademo & CCS type 2 plugs.

This is a great outcome.

NZ was heading down the track of a USA style tethered type 1 (J-1772) public AC charging stations (driven by the common nissan leaf's). Unfortunately these cannot be used with type 2 car's such as the results, and Tesla. (without using an adaptor, which while available are not permitted under the appropriate standards)

With a untethered (bring your own cord) public charger, the user simply uses their cord that has a type 2 plug on one end, and an appropriate plug of their car on the other (i.e. type 2 to type 1 for nissan leaf users)

While this does mean that Nissan leaf driver's will need to buy an additional cord each, This system does have it's advantages.

Public chargers will be neater (no cord when people aren't charging)
Public chargers will be cheaper (the cord adds a few hundred dollars to the cost) to buy, so hopefully more will be set up by companies.
Public chargers should have better uptime. (cords are prone to vandalism and damage that can take a charger offline)
Companies are less likely to decommission charger's as they might choose to if they suffer late night copper theft or vandalism damage. (hopefully rare in NZ)

The main reason I support the type 2 charging standard is because 3 phase power is readily available in NZ. As batteries get bigger three phase will become important. I am thinking particularly of Electric Truck, Buses & Van's. Big single phase loads are seriously frowned upon in commercial & industrial settings.

MikeB4

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#1643640 1-Oct-2016 07:55

The Nissan Renault relationship is more than just a design share, Renault owns close to 50% of Nissan and Nissan owns around 15% of Renault. Both companies are headed by the same man, Carlos Ghosn.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

lchiu7

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#1643819 1-Oct-2016 14:12

I found this article interesting.

http://bgr.com/2016/09/29/tesla-model-s-upkeep-200000-miles/

A Tesla S that has done 200K miles ( or about 320K Km). While it was in a short time apparently the only issues were a motor that was replaced (presumably under warranty) and the battery (though that appears to be an expediency for Tesla since the problem could have been fixed with a firmware upgrade.

How many of us drive cars that much? It says a lot about Tesla's first generation battery technology.

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#1644276 2-Oct-2016 16:48

lchiu7:

I found this article interesting.

http://bgr.com/2016/09/29/tesla-model-s-upkeep-200000-miles/

A Tesla S that has done 200K miles ( or about 320K Km). While it was in a short time apparently the only issues were a motor that was replaced (presumably under warranty) and the battery (though that appears to be an expediency for Tesla since the problem could have been fixed with a firmware upgrade.

How many of us drive cars that much? It says a lot about Tesla's first generation battery technology.

There is a similar story about a UK taxi that did over 100,000 miles and still had 12 bars out of 12 for the battery. I have been told had dropped to 10 bars (80-ish% capacity) by 230,000 miles....but I can't find a link for that.

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#1644322 2-Oct-2016 19:36

Linuxluver:

lchiu7:

I found this article interesting.

http://bgr.com/2016/09/29/tesla-model-s-upkeep-200000-miles/

A Tesla S that has done 200K miles ( or about 320K Km). While it was in a short time apparently the only issues were a motor that was replaced (presumably under warranty) and the battery (though that appears to be an expediency for Tesla since the problem could have been fixed with a firmware upgrade.

How many of us drive cars that much? It says a lot about Tesla's first generation battery technology.

There is a similar story about a UK taxi that did over 100,000 miles and still had 12 bars out of 12 for the battery. I have been told had dropped to 10 bars (80-ish% capacity) by 230,000 miles....but I can't find a link for that.

Impressive, although take with grain of salt given that's just a sample size = 1. My N=1 experience is a 3y old 2nd gen Leaf with only ~30k km but battery's already down to 80% of original capacity...

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#1644497 3-Oct-2016 08:37

paulchinnz:

........ 3y old 2nd gen Leaf with only ~30k km but battery's already down to 80% of original capacity...

When it comes to traction batteries - there are so many factors impacting their lifespan, among those: number of cycles, for EV - number of fast charging cycles, temperature all the way during the battery was used/not used. Number of times it was stored in the nearly depleted state. The way it was charged - topped up regularly or charged after complete depletion, etc.

Manufacturer matters. When Li batteries were made in Fukushima - those were perfect. Bateries made in Japan are of a high quality, made in China - not nessesarily of a good quality.

I saw quite amasing things with batteries - 10 y.o. still high capacity both Li and NiMH and 3 y.o. already dead with both chemistries.

MikeAqua

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#1644514 3-Oct-2016 09:16

lchiu7:

I found this article interesting.

http://bgr.com/2016/09/29/tesla-model-s-upkeep-200000-miles/

A Tesla S that has done 200K miles ( or about 320K Km). While it was in a short time apparently the only issues were a motor that was replaced (presumably under warranty) and the battery (though that appears to be an expediency for Tesla since the problem could have been fixed with a firmware upgrade.

How many of us drive cars that much? It says a lot about Tesla's first generation battery technology.

That's especially impressive if things like brake components and shock absorbers didn't need replacing in 320k.

I've never had >150k out of a vehicle without a brake refurb being required and I've never had >200k without some shocks being replaced.

I've personally owned three vehicles that have gone >200k without mechanical problems (2 diesel, 1 petrol). I currently have a diesel sitting in the 160s with no issues so far.

Mike

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