Electric Vehicle: Will you buy one

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Electric Vehicle: Will you buy one - if not why not?

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#1822921 15-Jul-2017 16:04

frednz:

Just come across this Wall Street Journal article (dated 12 July 2017) which is well worth reading:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-cars-are-the-future-not-so-fast-1499873064

The article includes a discussion of the effect of tax credits on EV buyer behaviour (NZ Govt please take note).

It also discusses something EV enthusiasts don't want to know, that is, the amount of "carbon dioxide per mile" that EVs can be responsible for (i.e. the generation of electricity is not entirely free from producing its own emissions).

The Wall Street Journal is Rupert Murdoch's climate change denying business rag. It used to be a credible journal, but that was before he bought it.

Murdoch and Koch brothers are currently running a propaganda campaign against EVs in support of their fossil fuel investments.

For example, they use a battery cost of US$273 / kWh. The current cost is actually about half that....so their arguement on the old, inflated number is no longer even in the ball park.

I could go on.....but the rest of the article is mostly fake news. Check for yourselves though Murdoch and the Kochs are betting you won't.

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Linuxluver

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#1822922 15-Jul-2017 16:09

MikeB4:

Absolutely.

As you know I am a big fan of EVs and as soon as there are models that meet my needs I am in. I also look forward to quiet cities with the gentle hum of EVs

....I do know. :-)

I saw some seriously smokey diesel trucks yesterday. Really, REALLY bad...."General Freight" almost unreadable through the massive exhaust cloud. The sooner diesel is banned, the better. The fuel is dirty and the poorly maintained vehicles effectively poison the rest of us. We share that air. No one should be allowed to fill it with carcinogens and other illness-inducing particulates like these people were.

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networkn

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#1822946 15-Jul-2017 16:35

Linuxluver:

MikeB4:

Absolutely.

As you know I am a big fan of EVs and as soon as there are models that meet my needs I am in. I also look forward to quiet cities with the gentle hum of EVs

....I do know. :-)

I saw some seriously smokey diesel trucks yesterday. Really, REALLY bad...."General Freight" almost unreadable through the massive exhaust cloud. The sooner diesel is banned, the better. The fuel is dirty and the poorly maintained vehicles effectively poison the rest of us. We share that air. No one should be allowed to fill it with carcinogens and other illness-inducing particulates like these people were.

I guess you'll probably then want all heavy industry gone then! If you are worried what's being put in the environment, there are a lot of places to look. You could start by boycotting anything made by heavy industries.. Wait, aren't electric cars and their parts made by those same factories :)

You could always petition the owners to modernise their fleets, but I wonder if you are prepared for the increase in the raw cost of your items when they pass those costs on?

There is no such thing as a free lunch!

gzt

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#1822982 15-Jul-2017 17:16

Well that sounds particularly bad:

NZPolice: It is an offence for a vehicle to omit a stream of smoke or vapour for more than 10 seconds.

It carries an instant fine of $150.
Vehicles need to pass an exhaust emissions test as part of Warrant of Fitness inspections.

To report a smoky vehicle, you can call *555 from a mobile phone.
Smoky exhaust tests (New Zealand Transport Agency website)

Linuxluver

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#1822984 15-Jul-2017 17:40

networkn:

I guess you'll probably then want all heavy industry gone then! If you are worried what's being put in the environment, there are a lot of places to look. You could start by boycotting anything made by heavy industries.. Wait, aren't electric cars and their parts made by those same factories :)

You could always petition the owners to modernise their fleets, but I wonder if you are prepared for the increase in the raw cost of your items when they pass those costs on?

There is no such thing as a free lunch!

The old straw man argument.

The extremes you suggest go well beyond my hope we can stop using diesel for transport on public roads because it fouls our air and makes us ill.

There are alternatives.....but it's cheaper to kill people?

I'll leave you there.

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Linuxluver

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#1822985 15-Jul-2017 17:43

gzt: Well that sounds particularly bad:

NZPolice: It is an offence for a vehicle to omit a stream of smoke or vapour for more than 10 seconds.

It carries an instant fine of $150.
Vehicles need to pass an exhaust emissions test as part of Warrant of Fitness inspections.

To report a smoky vehicle, you can call *555 from a mobile phone.
Smoky exhaust tests (New Zealand Transport Agency website)

Thanks. I should have reported this truck.

I tried to take a video of it but my Huawei P10 refused to take any video.....as I found out later -> until it was rebooted. Just one of the issues I've had with that phone......(a subject for a post in a different forum). It truly was really bad.......and traffic was heavy, too. "Thanks for sharing". :-(

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MarkH67

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#1823142 16-Jul-2017 10:51

EVs are going to become more and more common over the next few years, there will end up being a lot more choice.

There is an article in the NZ Herald with some interesting information: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11890873

Mercedes has announced plans to spend US$11 billion ($15b) over the next five years on 10 EV models, Volkswagen has committed US$10b to EVs over the same period and General Motors has earmarked nearly US$4b.

Meanwhile, Ford has committed to develop an EV with a 480km battery range by 2020.

Some would buy an EV today and others wouldn't, but the numbers that would buy one will increase as more options become available.

My view is that a car with 200km would be usable for most of the needs of most drivers but 480km or more of range would make electric cars usable for the only car for most drivers. My most recent trip was from the Waikato to Hastings which was a bit over 300km one way, doable with 200km range if I had stopped in Taupo to charge up but with 480km range I could easily do that trip, charge over night and be good to get home again. Because I was able to run the entire trip without stopping I did, with enough range on an electric car I'd drive the same way as with a petrol car.

I go to Auckland a few times a year to catch up with friends, ~135km each way done as a day trip. With 480km range it would be easy to do it without needing to charge up there and without needing to ensure I drove economically to make sure I wouldn't run out of power and with no anxiety about the range. I see a large benefit to being able to make a trip very comfortably with no concerns about running out of power.

Of course there will be a big change as the batteries get cheaper, which will happen as the production numbers for them drastically rise with all the new cars being built.

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Linuxluver

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#1823301 16-Jul-2017 15:59

MarkH67:

EVs are going to become more and more common over the next few years, there will end up being a lot more choice.

There is an article in the NZ Herald with some interesting information: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11890873

Mercedes has announced plans to spend US$11 billion ($15b) over the next five years on 10 EV models, Volkswagen has committed US$10b to EVs over the same period and General Motors has earmarked nearly US$4b.

Meanwhile, Ford has committed to develop an EV with a 480km battery range by 2020.

Some would buy an EV today and others wouldn't, but the numbers that would buy one will increase as more options become available.

My view is that a car with 200km would be usable for most of the needs of most drivers but 480km or more of range would make electric cars usable for the only car for most drivers. My most recent trip was from the Waikato to Hastings which was a bit over 300km one way, doable with 200km range if I had stopped in Taupo to charge up but with 480km range I could easily do that trip, charge over night and be good to get home again. Because I was able to run the entire trip without stopping I did, with enough range on an electric car I'd drive the same way as with a petrol car.

I go to Auckland a few times a year to catch up with friends, ~135km each way done as a day trip. With 480km range it would be easy to do it without needing to charge up there and without needing to ensure I drove economically to make sure I wouldn't run out of power and with no anxiety about the range. I see a large benefit to being able to make a trip very comfortably with no concerns about running out of power.

Of course there will be a big change as the batteries get cheaper, which will happen as the production numbers for them drastically rise with all the new cars being built.

The 30kWh LEAF has certainly proved useful at my house. I've driven it from Auckland to Bluff, then to Cape Reinga and back to Auckland. The only overnight charging stops were between Nelson and Christchurch and on the return trip between Kaitaia and Cape Reinga (220km all up....with some BIG hills near the Cape). Other than that, it was pretty much driving as usual. As the fast charger network continues to mature, even these gaps will be filled.

The funny part is the car has better range than my bladder.......so charging is a convenient excuse to stop. :-)

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MarkH67

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#1823305 16-Jul-2017 16:18

Linuxluver:

The 30kWh LEAF has certainly proved useful at my house. I've driven it from Auckland to Bluff, then to Cape Reinga and back to Auckland. The only overnight charging stops were between Nelson and Christchurch and on the return trip between Kaitaia and Cape Reinga (220km all up....with some BIG hills near the Cape). Other than that, it was pretty much driving as usual. As the fast charger network continues to mature, even these gaps will be filled.

The funny part is the car has better range than my bladder.......so charging is a convenient excuse to stop. :-)

WOW! How long does it take you to empty your bladder?

I've ridden from Wellington to Auckland with stops no longer than needed to fill the tank (which isn't long on a bike with a small fuel tank) though I was busting to empty my bladder once I got to Auckland. I often ride for longer than 300km without stopping so for me I'd have to change how I did things with only 200km range. It really wont take long though before we see several choices of BEVs with 350+ km of range, this will change some people's reluctance to consider a vehicle with no fossil fuel powered motor.

alasta

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#1823347 16-Jul-2017 17:34

Apologies if this has already been addressed, but what is the current expectation of battery capacity degradation over a five year period?

That is, if I replace my car every five years and need 400km range then would that mean that I would need to buy something with 500km range in order to allow for a 20% degradation in capacity over five years? Or does it depend on a whole lot of factors that might not be predictable?

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#1823380 16-Jul-2017 18:46

Many 2011 leafs currently selling with 11 or 12 bars (out of 12) after 7 years (first bar dropped =15% loss) and then the next few bars apparently drop 6.7% each. Nissan ‘garauntees’ 70% battery function after 10 years, so starting with 450 should still leave you with 390 kms after 5 years?

alasta

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#1823384 16-Jul-2017 19:23

PhantomNVD: Many 2011 leafs currently selling with 11 or 12 bars (out of 12) after 7 years (first bar dropped =15% loss) and then the next few bars apparently drop 6.7% each. Nissan ‘garauntees’ 70% battery function after 10 years, so starting with 450 should still leave you with 390 kms after 5 years?

Thanks, that's really useful information.

kiwirock

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#1823441 16-Jul-2017 20:35

The question I have based on those above figures, does it still consume the energy needed as if it was charging a full 12 bars in order to reach the 70% mark? Therefore less efficient. Or does it charge 30% quicker (use 30% less energy to charge)?

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#1823483 16-Jul-2017 21:35

alasta:

PhantomNVD: Many 2011 leafs currently selling with 11 or 12 bars (out of 12) after 7 years (first bar dropped =15% loss) and then the next few bars apparently drop 6.7% each. Nissan ‘garauntees’ 70% battery function after 10 years, so starting with 450 should still leave you with 390 kms after 5 years?

Thanks, that's really useful information.

Does the guarantee transcend continents?

PhantomNVD

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#1823544 17-Jul-2017 03:00

Batman:
alasta:

PhantomNVD: Many 2011 leafs currently selling with 11 or 12 bars (out of 12) after 7 years (first bar dropped =15% loss) and then the next few bars apparently drop 6.7% each. Nissan ‘garauntees’ 70% battery function after 10 years, so starting with 450 should still leave you with 390 kms after 5 years?

Thanks, that's really useful information.

Does the guarantee transcend continents?

Good question! AFAIK the case has yet to be tested here, but here’s the original statement... see what you think?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192

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