Electric Vehicle: Will you buy one

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Electric Vehicle: Will you buy one - if not why not?

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7773 posts

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#1824439 18-Jul-2017 14:56

Linuxluver:

People considering EVs are increasingly using the "Bladder test".

I think you might be taking the p*ss Reminds me of the advertising exec who defended TV commercials as informative and convenient toilet breaks.

My bladder requires a 2 minute stop and any tree will do.

An EV requires a ~30 minute stop for a ~80% charge - assuming one doesn't have to queue for a charger ...

I'm driving to get to B (or back to A) not to faff about.

Mike

Linuxluver

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#1824442 18-Jul-2017 14:59

MikeAqua:

It's not defeatest to say enthalpy can't be exceeded, its basic thermodynamics.

Enthalpy actually can't be attained by a battery let alone exceeded.

Tesla seem to have good battery management systems in their cars.

One notable vehicle owner deliberately just drove and drove and drove his Tesla over 300,000 miles...and the battery was still 94% of original capacity (if I recall correctly).

Tesla try to keep the battery at optimal temperature....and use the power in the battery to do it, if the driver allows it.

It seems to work. Looks like a good model.

After 300,000 miles I'd think many other things would be giving up the ghost first. :-)

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kryptonjohn

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#1824446 18-Jul-2017 15:03

Unless it's a 1980s Toyota the engine and transmission would be long gone.

Linuxluver

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#1824448 18-Jul-2017 15:04

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

People considering EVs are increasingly using the "Bladder test".

I think you might be taking the p*ss Reminds me of the advertising exec who defended TV commercials as informative and convenient toilet breaks.

My bladder requires a 2 minute stop and any tree will do.

An EV requires a ~30 minute stop for a ~80% charge - assuming one doesn't have to queue for a charger ...

I'm driving to get to B (or back to A) not to faff about.

That's you, then. :-)

I've come to very much enjoy the break in driving....and find I arrive not shattered.

Try it......you might like it.

You could compromise by getting a Model 3 in a year or so...and then drive Wellington to Auckland with one 20 minute stop at a 350kw Tesla Supercharger. You may have to look for a nearby bush though to help pass the time. ;-) It's at least a 7 hour drive even for hoons.....and you may want to stop to eat or drink a thing....at least once.

As for the bladder test.....it seems to be a real thing for a lot of people. Certainly is for me. I'm not very good at stopping for 60 seconds and taking off. I like a break.

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WyleECoyoteNZ

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#1824455 18-Jul-2017 15:08

kryptonjohn:

WyleECoyoteNZ:

Can you have your Model X in the sea water to it's rear axle while launching\retrieving a boat at a boat ramp for example?

I wouldn't do that with any car be it EV or ICE and I can't think of any boat ramp where I'd need to.

WyleECoyoteNZ:

It's also going to require a massive, massive investment by every motor camp, motel, and hotel in the country to have EV charging per motel unit\room, and additional charging outlets at every powered campsite throughout the country so you can charge your EV while road tripping around the country.

Doesn't have to happen overnight. As EV use grows, charger availability will lag but will grow. Which will allow EV use to increase further.

I think EVs becoming mainstream is inevitable, as are driverless cars. But it might take a while.

Pilot bay, Mount Maunganui boat ramp. I've seen plenty of vehicles, mainly SUVs\4x4, with there rear axle in the water.

MarkH67

517 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1824475 18-Jul-2017 15:29

frankv:

Would you put this 1000-car parking garage and associated megamall in Foxton, Sanson, Bulls, or Hunterville? (For Aucklanders and South Islanders, these are small towns about 2 hours drive from Wellington).

Each long weekend this parking garage would be full to overflowing; the rest of the time it would be at most 2% utilised.

What I was suggesting was building as many charging outlets as was warranted. There would only be a 1,000 car garage with 1,000 charging points if that was what the motoring public needed. Would there really be that many cars stopping at any given time at one shopping mall, all needing to charge? If there were then it could be done, but I'm a bit doubtful that anything like that would be needed, especially if most people are not driving far enough to need charging over and above the overnight charge that would be the norm.

MarkH67

517 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1824478 18-Jul-2017 15:32

MikeAqua:

It's not defeatest to say enthalpy can't be exceeded, its basic thermodynamics.

Enthalpy actually can't be attained by a battery let alone exceeded.

I was meaning the idea that we couldn't get 800km range due to enthalpy.

Since we can already get 580km range I would have to guess that we could achieve at least some gains. Or are you suggesting that the current state of battery technology is the absolute pinnacle and we wont improve on it over the next ten years?

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MikeAqua

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#1824487 18-Jul-2017 15:39

Linuxluver:

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

People considering EVs are increasingly using the "Bladder test".

I think you might be taking the p*ss Reminds me of the advertising exec who defended TV commercials as informative and convenient toilet breaks.

My bladder requires a 2 minute stop and any tree will do.

An EV requires a ~30 minute stop for a ~80% charge - assuming one doesn't have to queue for a charger ...

I'm driving to get to B (or back to A) not to faff about.

That's you, then. :-)

I've come to very much enjoy the break in driving....and find I arrive not shattered.

Try it......you might like it.

I find the secret to arriving not shattered is a shorter journey, free from range anxiety.

The secret to a short journey is a doing the speed limit where possible, keeping speed up through winding sections where comfortable, and not stopping very often or for very long.

I don't enjoy dilly-dallying when I have somewhere to get to. I know this from experience of the inter-island ferry.

An incomplete journey is just an incomplete task. An incomplete task is something standing between me and a nice cold beer.

Mike

frankv

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#1824502 18-Jul-2017 15:53

Rikkitic:

Although I haven't heard the term used for awhile, Americans used to speak of 'instant gratification' as a symptom of the self-obsessed 'me' generation. The idea is that people want something and they want it now with no conditions or restrictions. I think of this when I imagine the ubiquitous young male hopping into his V8 and turning the key. The problem (if it is one) with electric vehicles is not limited range or slow charging. It is that this style of driving requires change on the part of the drivers. People need to think about things they didn't have to before, or think about them differently. For many that is too much ask. They want to just flip a switch and go, preferably with lots of smoke and noise. When people get used to a different way of doing things, a lot of the objections will disappear.

I'm not a millenial and don't think I'm into instant gratification or self-obsessed. But I do think that it is progress to be able to do more of what I want when I want. So, if I can jump in a car today and turn the key and drive to Auckland, then it will be a bad thing if I can't do that next year. When CDs came out, people continued to use cassettes until writable CDs came out. CDs have been replaced by USB sticks and phone memory and Spotify only because they provide all the essential functionality (listen to what music you like, when you like, where you like, at an acceptable price) that CDs and cassettes had.

When EVs provide *more* convenience and capability and economy than ICEVs, people in general will move to them. Until then, it will only be enthusiasts and early adopters.

Linuxluver

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#1824530 18-Jul-2017 16:17

frankv:

Rikkitic:

Although I haven't heard the term used for awhile, Americans used to speak of 'instant gratification' as a symptom of the self-obsessed 'me' generation. The idea is that people want something and they want it now with no conditions or restrictions. I think of this when I imagine the ubiquitous young male hopping into his V8 and turning the key. The problem (if it is one) with electric vehicles is not limited range or slow charging. It is that this style of driving requires change on the part of the drivers. People need to think about things they didn't have to before, or think about them differently. For many that is too much ask. They want to just flip a switch and go, preferably with lots of smoke and noise. When people get used to a different way of doing things, a lot of the objections will disappear.

I'm not a millenial and don't think I'm into instant gratification or self-obsessed. But I do think that it is progress to be able to do more of what I want when I want. So, if I can jump in a car today and turn the key and drive to Auckland, then it will be a bad thing if I can't do that next year. When CDs came out, people continued to use cassettes until writable CDs came out. CDs have been replaced by USB sticks and phone memory and Spotify only because they provide all the essential functionality (listen to what music you like, when you like, where you like, at an acceptable price) that CDs and cassettes had.

When EVs provide *more* convenience and capability and economy than ICEVs, people in general will move to them. Until then, it will only be enthusiasts and early adopters.

The other factor is when people become aware of it.

In a way, that's why I started these threads.....to allow me and others to share waht we know about this with people who don't yet know.

Convenience? I charge at home and never go to a petrol station.

Capability? I've driven the length of NZ twice and there were no issues that disturbed me. Nothing broke. The ride was smooth and quiet. I did have to stop to charge, but I knew that and it wasn't a problem for me. I was ready for it......because:

Cost? I don't buy any petrol. Electricity is much cheaper. Hands down. No question. I spend as close to zero on repairs and servicing as one could ever hope for. My EV cost about the same as a similar class of 4-door sedan bought brand new.....probably even less.

So my EV wins on all counts - for me - for convenience and cost. Capability is in the eye of the beholder. For me, not burning fossil fuels is a critical element in the set of capabilities I require. No normal car can do that at all.

My point here is that this is all in the eye of the beholder. It's not attractive to you. That is fine. But it is very attractive to many other people.....and by discussing these issues like this in some detail, over time, more people will be able to decide if they want to save money on a smooth, powerful ride that frees them from fossil fuels......at the price of spending a few minutes charging along the way and a few dollars more to buy in (which repays itself quickly enough).

Thanks for taking the time. :-)

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tripper1000

1617 posts

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#1824552 18-Jul-2017 16:32

WyleECoyoteNZ:

For the EV to succeed, it's needs to be able to do 100% of the things a conventional ICE powered vehicle can do.

That would make it simple to market to people, however I'm not sure it is actually true. Take smart phones - they've been wildly successful but still don't have the same battery lifeas a good old 1990's Nokia - people just accept they need to charge smart phones daily - the Nokia is/was like an ICE - refuel it once a week, the smart phone is like an EV - charge it daily - and people just accept it as normal.

The charging point situation is similar - in the Nokia (or ICE) days there weren't many/any public charging points, now we have the smart phone with it's "short range" or battery life there are charging points everywhere - ferries, busses, airports, seat backs in aircraft etc.

Nokia may have made a big deal about the battery life, but the smart phone changed what is normal and won out.

WyleECoyoteNZ

1049 posts

Uber Geek

#1824567 18-Jul-2017 16:40

Linuxluver:

frankv:

Rikkitic:

Although I haven't heard the term used for awhile, Americans used to speak of 'instant gratification' as a symptom of the self-obsessed 'me' generation. The idea is that people want something and they want it now with no conditions or restrictions. I think of this when I imagine the ubiquitous young male hopping into his V8 and turning the key. The problem (if it is one) with electric vehicles is not limited range or slow charging. It is that this style of driving requires change on the part of the drivers. People need to think about things they didn't have to before, or think about them differently. For many that is too much ask. They want to just flip a switch and go, preferably with lots of smoke and noise. When people get used to a different way of doing things, a lot of the objections will disappear.

I'm not a millenial and don't think I'm into instant gratification or self-obsessed. But I do think that it is progress to be able to do more of what I want when I want. So, if I can jump in a car today and turn the key and drive to Auckland, then it will be a bad thing if I can't do that next year. When CDs came out, people continued to use cassettes until writable CDs came out. CDs have been replaced by USB sticks and phone memory and Spotify only because they provide all the essential functionality (listen to what music you like, when you like, where you like, at an acceptable price) that CDs and cassettes had.

When EVs provide *more* convenience and capability and economy than ICEVs, people in general will move to them. Until then, it will only be enthusiasts and early adopters.

The other factor is when people become aware of it.

In a way, that's why I started these threads.....to allow me and others to share waht we know about this with people who don't yet know.

Convenience? I charge at home and never go to a petrol station.

Capability? I've driven the length of NZ twice and there were no issues that disturbed me. Nothing broke. The ride was smooth and quiet. I did have to stop to charge, but I knew that and it wasn't a problem for me. I was ready for it......because:

Cost? I don't buy any petrol. Electricity is much cheaper. Hands down. No question. I spend as close to zero on repairs and servicing as one could ever hope for. My EV cost about the same as a similar class of 4-door sedan bought brand new.....probably even less.

So my EV wins on all counts - for me - for convenience and cost. Capability is in the eye of the beholder. For me, not burning fossil fuels is a critical element in the set of capabilities I require. No normal car can do that at all.

My point here is that this is all in the eye of the beholder. It's not attractive to you. That is fine. But it is very attractive to many other people.....and by discussing these issues like this in some detail, over time, more people will be able to decide if they want to save money on a smooth, powerful ride that frees them from fossil fuels......at the price of spending a few minutes charging along the way and a few dollars more to buy in (which repays itself quickly enough).

Thanks for taking the time. :-)

Cost is lower at moment while demand is low.

There is nothing to stop PowerCo in Waiouru for example charging the same to recharge your EV as it costs to fill a similar class of 4 door car in the future. Supply and Demand.

And in theory, this supply and demand could result in increased household costs for all, regardless of if you drive an EV or not, as the use and home charging (therefore demand) becomes more common place.

tripper1000

1617 posts

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#1824592 18-Jul-2017 16:55

Batman: Except that if you go on your annual journey, then so would 1 million others. Or 10 million if you are from a metropolis. The queue to charge would be ... Sorry beyond my math ability.

I'm sure they will come up with something ...

Overcrowding at gas stations during the holiday rush in nothing new.

As demand for energy switches from petrol to power, gas stations will replace pumps with chargers. It is simpler and cheaper to build charging stations than gas stations, (think hazardous goods and the compliance for fuel storage, and rain water filtering on forecourts) so it isn't unreasonable to expect 1 pump to be replaced with 2 or 3 charging stations. The delivery & distribution network already goes to most buildings in N.Z.

The economic model is already there for the gas stations - they already make most of their profit from selling you stuff other than fuel - if it takes 20 minutes to charge instead of 10 minutes to refuel, they're more likely to sell you coffee and pies.

If you imagine there are as many places to fast charge as there are gas stations and the maths are not so mind boggling.

kryptonjohn

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#1824607 18-Jul-2017 17:07

WyleECoyoteNZ:

kryptonjohn:

WyleECoyoteNZ:

Can you have your Model X in the sea water to it's rear axle while launching\retrieving a boat at a boat ramp for example?

I wouldn't do that with any car be it EV or ICE and I can't think of any boat ramp where I'd need to.

WyleECoyoteNZ:

It's also going to require a massive, massive investment by every motor camp, motel, and hotel in the country to have EV charging per motel unit\room, and additional charging outlets at every powered campsite throughout the country so you can charge your EV while road tripping around the country.

Doesn't have to happen overnight. As EV use grows, charger availability will lag but will grow. Which will allow EV use to increase further.

I think EVs becoming mainstream is inevitable, as are driverless cars. But it might take a while.

Pilot bay, Mount Maunganui boat ramp. I've seen plenty of vehicles, mainly SUVs\4x4, with there rear axle in the water.

I believe you. But why would they *need* to? And relevant to this thread, what percentage of the population would ever need to or try to?

It would have to be a long, shallow inclined ramp to require this. Lots of places are beach ramps or tidal - it just means you use a tractor not a car. And if it's a car it better be one you don't mind getting rusted out in short order.

MarkH67

517 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1824616 18-Jul-2017 17:18

tripper1000:

As demand for energy switches from petrol to power, gas stations will replace pumps with chargers. It is simpler and cheaper to build charging stations than gas stations, (think hazardous goods and the compliance for fuel storage, and rain water filtering on forecourts) so it isn't unreasonable to expect 1 pump to be replaced with 2 or 3 charging stations. The delivery & distribution network already goes to most buildings in N.Z.

True, except that being easier and cheaper to provide charging you will see pretty much every shopping mall in the country offering charging points for electric cars. You will also see cafes and restaurants offering charging points. Camping grounds, motels and hotels will offer overnight charging stations. Basically there will be many more places offering to refill your car when electric really takes off than what we currently have for petrol cars.

Infrastructure - right now the infrastructure is already in place delivering electricity right into my home, I could charge an electric car right here while I sleep tonight. Basically that is already a step up compared to the fossil fuel burners.

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