RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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#3163717 25-Nov-2023 17:46

jarledb:

I don't think the RUC system should be fair. I think an environmentally conscious government would implement a RUC system that gives a higher price per km for more polluting cars, and less for environmentally friendly cars.

With the current government that is highly unlikely to happen.

The legislated purpose of RUCs is stated as: "The revenue collected from road user charges is dedicated to the National Land Transport Fund (NLTF). The NLTF funds new roads, improvements and maintenance, public transport, road safety, and walking and cycling."

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/about-ruc/

For that reason RUC rates are best levied on the basis of vehicle weight bands.

To restructure the revenue collection system to incentivise or penalise vehicles by virtue of their energy source is outside the intent of the RUC mandate. Segregating vehicles in terms of fuel/energy use is best addressed by way of carbon taxation of the various (fossil) fuels they use and is a more elegant method of disincentivising fossil fuel use. It's not about 'fairness' so much as redesigning a taxation system to best fit the intended purposes.

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#3163718 25-Nov-2023 17:49

jarledb:

I don't think the RUC system should be fair. I think an environmentally conscious government would implement a RUC system that gives a higher price per km for more polluting cars, and less for environmentally friendly cars.

With the current government that is highly unlikely to happen.

RUC's are intended to fund the land transport network, not to provide an incentive to reduce emmsions.

The incentive to reduce emissions is already included in the price of petrol / diesel with the emissions trading scheme. Objectively this is the fairest way to price emissions, and it means that off road emissions are priced also.

But of course the issue with the above is that the current system where petrol is taxed per liter has acted as quite a strong incentive to reduce emission's (for petrol car users, which is the bulk of our fleet). Moving to to just relying on the ETS will mean a lesser incentive for petrol users than there is currently. Petrol v8 drivers rejoice. Prius and similar drivers (incl most of the taxi fleet) annoyed.

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#3163732 25-Nov-2023 18:56

It does lead to fuels retaining a pollution tax component while road user charges cover damage to roads.

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#3164542 27-Nov-2023 17:48

Waka Kotahi's page on RUC https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-record-keeping/ says records must be kept

Section 65 and the definition of records in section 5 of the Road User Charges Act 2012 says the records that must be kept are:

entries in logbooks – for one year
permits issued under Vehicle Dimensions and Mass Rule 2016 (VDAM Rule) – for one year from the permit expiry date
records of maintenance of a vehicle – for two years
invoices for fuel and maintenance of RUC vehicles – for six years
invoices relating to cartage by, or use of the vehicle – for six years.

Do owners of diesel cars keep all of these? A logbook? Maintenance records and invoices?

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#3164552 27-Nov-2023 17:57

Scott3:

The incentive to reduce emissions is already included in the price of petrol / diesel with the emissions trading scheme. Objectively this is the fairest way to price emissions, and it means that off road emissions are priced also.

It would be if carbon was priced at the level required to offset the costs of climate change. But currently it is far too low, and setting it at the right price would be difficult. Non-paywalled article (quotes 60c/L price rise required).

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#3164556 27-Nov-2023 18:12

Shadowfoot:

Waka Kotahi's page on RUC https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-record-keeping/ says records must be kept

Section 65 and the definition of records in section 5 of the Road User Charges Act 2012 says the records that must be kept are:

entries in logbooks – for one year
permits issued under Vehicle Dimensions and Mass Rule 2016 (VDAM Rule) – for one year from the permit expiry date
records of maintenance of a vehicle – for two years
invoices for fuel and maintenance of RUC vehicles – for six years
invoices relating to cartage by, or use of the vehicle – for six years.

Do owners of diesel cars keep all of these? A logbook? Maintenance records and invoices?

That document is just further justification for a real time vehicle monitoring device system to be implemented, with significant penalties if tampered with. That way accurate travel distances can be recorded and charged for electronically including for congestion charges and/or road tolls and excluding off road use.

Keeping written records, as that document alludes to, is so last century.

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#3164879 28-Nov-2023 08:53

Shadowfoot:

Do owners of diesel cars keep all of these? A logbook? Maintenance records and invoices?

That piece is a little ambiguous. It's not saying you need to keep a logbook for a year, it's saying that if you are required to keep a logbook (separate rule on driving hours etc)), you have to keep it for a year. For a private light vehicle, you have an adequate record of distance driven, it's called an odometer.

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#3164899 28-Nov-2023 09:55

Shadowfoot:

Waka Kotahi's page on RUC https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-record-keeping/ says records must be kept

Section 65 and the definition of records in section 5 of the Road User Charges Act 2012 says the records that must be kept are:

entries in logbooks – for one year
permits issued under Vehicle Dimensions and Mass Rule 2016 (VDAM Rule) – for one year from the permit expiry date
records of maintenance of a vehicle – for two years
invoices for fuel and maintenance of RUC vehicles – for six years
invoices relating to cartage by, or use of the vehicle – for six years.

Do owners of diesel cars keep all of these? A logbook? Maintenance records and invoices?

Nope. The only records I have are entries in the service book.

Although it isn't stated, I suspect this is aimed at transport operators, who would need to keep all those records for business purposes.

I'm not bothered. I've never even heard of a private vehicle owner being subjected to an RUC audit. I doubt they would recover enough revenue from a private user, to justify an auditor's time.

Mike

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#3164905 28-Nov-2023 10:07

Shadowfoot:

Waka Kotahi's page on RUC https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/road-user-charges/ruc-record-keeping/ says records must be kept

The site is misleading, the records requirements only applies to RUC users with a TSL licence ( i.e heavy operators)

light privately owned diesels are not captured under the legislation...

https://legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2012/0001/latest/whole.html#DLM3395033

Road User Charges Act 2012

65 Certain persons must make and retain records

(1)This section applies to a person who holds, or has held, a transport service licence (other than a rental service licence).

(2) The person must—
(a) keep records in relation to each RUC vehicle that the person owns or operates; and
(b) retain those records for the purposes of this Act,—

,,,,,,

Kyanar

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#3165383 28-Nov-2023 23:22

maoriboy:

What would you suggest is a suitable replacement, given that road user charges are there to help fund our roading network? Where does the money come from if ruc's no longer exist and we are looking at a way to charge people fairly?

Are they? The vast majority of the road network is constructed and maintained by local councils, with little to no assistance from central government. It's rates that are there to fund the roading network, not fuel excise and road user charges. They only go towards motorways.

Scott3

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#3165386 28-Nov-2023 23:53

Kyanar:

maoriboy:

What would you suggest is a suitable replacement, given that road user charges are there to help fund our roading network? Where does the money come from if ruc's no longer exist and we are looking at a way to charge people fairly?

Are they? The vast majority of the road network is constructed and maintained by local councils, with little to no assistance from central government. It's rates that are there to fund the roading network, not fuel excise and road user charges. They only go towards motorways.

Should note that in addition to sole funding state highways (of which the vast majority are not motorways), Some of the land transport fund goes to local councils for use on local roads. An argument can be made that it should be more of course, but it is a decent chunk of local councils transport funding.

Below example is from Auckland Transport:

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#3165950 29-Nov-2023 20:00

hey guys I don't see abolishing ute tax (and clean car rebate) in the 100 day plan, does anyone know for sure it's happening?

HarmLessSolutions

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#3165953 29-Nov-2023 20:07

Batman:

hey guys I don't see abolishing ute tax (and clean car rebate) in the 100 day plan, does anyone know for sure it's happening?

Here (#13): https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nationalparty/pages/18468/attachments/original/1701229692/100_Day_Plan.pdf?1701229692

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

lchiu7

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#3166451 30-Nov-2023 16:39

Also

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/133375247/national-kills-off-clean-car-discount-scheme-ev-advocates-respond

HarmLessSolutions

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#3166526 30-Nov-2023 18:06

lchiu7:

Also

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/133375247/national-kills-off-clean-car-discount-scheme-ev-advocates-respond

Along with the usual anti-CCD rhetoric the comments section is full of the 'EVs must pay RUCs' line. Wonder how they'll react to learning that ALL vehicles will be charged distance based RUCs in the near future?

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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