EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#1733145 8-Mar-2017 16:24

frednz:

I think the main advantage of the Renault Zoe R90 is that it has an impressive range of 200km (in very cold weather) to 300km (in summer). I didn't realise there would be such a difference in range depending on whether the car is run in winter or summer, but these are the figures quoted by Renault. Apparently, the NEDC range is a maximum of 250 miles, but for practical running purposes this is reduced (by Renault) to 186 miles (300km).

Fred

An Auckland winter won't be anything like a French winter.....so anyone in the North Island won't have too much to worry about.....and the maybe the winter issue might apply to inland parts of the South Island where they see snow for extended periods and low temperatures.

But few inhabited places in NZ see tempt below -10C more than a handful of days in a year.

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#1733146 8-Mar-2017 16:24

Just had a question out of curiosity. I was having debate with a friend of a friend who wasn't on board with the idea of electric cars. She says that lithium batteries are not disposed properly and they only go in landfills and that is the reason she is against companies like Tesla. I asked her what car she drove - a Subaru :|.

I on the other hand am all on board with the idea of electric cars (I dont own because of the range, and that I bought a car 2 years ago) because:

Save on green house gases from emissions from the car itself
Save on the oil mining operations eg tar sand mining, fracking, drilling etc. The cost to natural habitats of animals around the world is quite a lot from all the oil operations. Dont forget the costs/emissions of transporting the oil and fuels to our local servos
Save on the costs of fuel, servicing, maintenance etc.
Quieter cars on the road means less noise pollution

The only argument the other side has is that lithium mining and disposal of the batteries is the issue.

Has anyone come across any advancements on the disposing of batteries being resolved? Or new battery technology coming out etc?

Linuxluver

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#1733147 8-Mar-2017 16:33

Hunter: Linuxluver

Hope you still around to answer more questions from me.

1. Is it possible to get electrocuted by the battery, I think it is at 48 volts.
2. Been looking at youtube on Leaf, and there seems to be a 12 volt normal car battery in it, what is charging that battery ?
3. Do you know if a UK model Leaf, be able to change from miles to km on the display ?
4. Some of the youtube video show the Leaf having a GPS on the display. If input a destination that is further than the battery can handle, it tells you that. Do you know if if possible to load in NZ maps ?

Thanks

1. No. Not unless you're a complete idiot. The battery is in a sealed metal container.

2. The 12v car battery is for the usual dash electronics. It is charged via the main traction battery when the car is on and in gear, or when you have the car plugged in and charging. There are some LEAFs with a small solar panel on the rear spoiler that is used to trickle-charge the 12v battery. But it's not really an issue. Yes, you do have to replace the 12v battery every few years, just like in a normal car.

3. Yes. I have a UK LEAF and the distance units are configurable. I changed mine from miles to km.

4. It is not possible to load in NZ maps. I just use my android phone on a dash-stand.

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#1733150 8-Mar-2017 16:38

Krishant007:

Just had a question out of curiosity. I was having debate with a friend of a friend who wasn't on board with the idea of electric cars. She says that lithium batteries are not disposed properly and they only go in landfills and that is the reason she is against companies like Tesla. I asked her what car she drove - a Subaru :|.

I on the other hand am all on board with the idea of electric cars (I dont own because of the range, and that I bought a car 2 years ago) because:

Save on green house gases from emissions from the car itself
Save on the oil mining operations eg tar sand mining, fracking, drilling etc. The cost to natural habitats of animals around the world is quite a lot from all the oil operations. Dont forget the costs/emissions of transporting the oil and fuels to our local servos
Save on the costs of fuel, servicing, maintenance etc.
Quieter cars on the road means less noise pollution
The only argument the other side has is that lithium mining and disposal of the batteries is the issue.

Has anyone come across any advancements on the disposing of batteries being resolved? Or new battery technology coming out etc?

Lithium is "mined" by evaporating water......so as far as mining goes, people who say this can't know anything about how Lithium is mined.

As for recycling.....lithium batteries absolutely can and should be recycled....but as we already know, just because something should be done doesn't mean it will be done. This would require government leadership and our current government has proven itself completely incapable of providing leadership on prety much anything but blank cheques for farmers and truckers....and juicy contracts for road builders.

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Scott3

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#1733356 8-Mar-2017 22:33

Linuxluver:

Hunter: Linuxluver

Hope you still around to answer more questions from me.

1. Is it possible to get electrocuted by the battery, I think it is at 48 volts.
2. Been looking at youtube on Leaf, and there seems to be a 12 volt normal car battery in it, what is charging that battery ?
3. Do you know if a UK model Leaf, be able to change from miles to km on the display ?
4. Some of the youtube video show the Leaf having a GPS on the display. If input a destination that is further than the battery can handle, it tells you that. Do you know if if possible to load in NZ maps ?

Thanks

1. No. Not unless you're a complete idiot. The battery is in a sealed metal container.

2. The 12v car battery is for the usual dash electronics. It is charged via the main traction battery when the car is on and in gear, or when you have the car plugged in and charging. There are some LEAFs with a small solar panel on the rear spoiler that is used to trickle-charge the 12v battery. But it's not really an issue. Yes, you do have to replace the 12v battery every few years, just like in a normal car.

3. Yes. I have a UK LEAF and the distance units are configurable. I changed mine from miles to km.

4. It is not possible to load in NZ maps. I just use my android phone on a dash-stand.

A little more info on this.

1. Traction pack voltage the Nissan Leaf and BMW i3 is 360V, Tesla Model S is 375V. This is definitely enough to electrocute somebody. However as Linuxluver said, unless you do something like cutting one of the orange cables under the hood with a hacksaw, or take the car apart without first pulling the service disconnect at the battery pack (between the rear seat footwells on the leaf), the cars are very safe. I would say a toaster is more dangerous to a normal user.

If you have a serious crash, the cars are setup to isolate the traction battery pack, just in case something was damaged and dangerous. First responders are trained in how to respond to crashes with electric & hybrid cars (they have dangerous voltages too), there are some first response guides on the net if you want to read.

2. There are three major reasons for this.

It allows car manufacturers to use standard 12v parts from everything from headlights, to window winders, to door lock, to entertainment systems, to security systems, such gear is designed to run of a battery connected system.
In a crash, or fault with the car, it is very useful to have 12v systems running. Think headlights, hazard lights, horn etc. Having the window winders powered up also provides an additional means of escape.
When the car is parked, the DC-DC converter (what charges the 12 battery in place of an alternator in a petrol car) can be turned off, and the main pack isolated. This eliminates the idle power use of the DC-DC converter from the system when parked.

FYI, the leaf doesn't have the best 12V battery management system, there are a couple of quirks to this. In short you might need slightly more frequent 12v battery replacements than a petrol car (they are fairly cheap), also read up on this before you leave your car parked up for weeks unused (basically leave your car charged, but unplugged, or plugged in with the charge timer set, or you may come back to a car with a flat 12v battery)

Lithium is the whipping boy for those who don't like electric cars, and havn't done much research. There are nastier mined things that are used in electric cars (i.e. Rare earth material in permanent magnet motors).

Usually this photo comes up...

That is actually a copper mine, not a lithium mine. And the alberta photo is clearly cherrypicked...

I can cherry pick an alberta oil photo too:

Anyway, the materials in Traction batteries are valuable, they will be repurposed our recycled when they are no longer needed in a car. Same deal as lead acid batteries in cars today. The value of the lead more than pays for the recycling cost.

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#1733473 9-Mar-2017 07:47

Norway hits 50% EV fleet

http://www.wheeltalk.co.nz/news/norway-running-50-evs

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1733503 9-Mar-2017 09:17

Interesting "While cars with combustion engines are heavily taxed, EVs are exempt from almost all taxes." Wonder how much a new Leaf costs there??

Regards,

Old3eyes

frednz

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#1733509 9-Mar-2017 09:34

Linuxluver:

frednz:

Linuxluver:

...and buy "near-new" LEAFs we mean many that are imported have as little as 16km on the clock. They buy them, get the subsidies....park them the required amount of time to keep the subsidy / rebate...and then put them on a boat.

So Kiwis do have access to EV subsidies.......from other countries and indirectly. I this is a big reason why the 30-odd Renault Zoe with 41kWh battery arriving soon at EV Central in Taupo are cheap and here before Renault NZ are selling the same bigger battery models. They have a 300km range.....which is pretty amazing for the price.

Yes, the Renault Zoe R90 with 41kWh battery looks to be a good improvement on, say, the Nissan Leaf. I see that EV Central in Taupo are importing them with 1000km on the clock, but does Renault NZ sell them brand new?

You say they are cheap, and sure the price of $39,990 is quite competitive, but I see they are sold in the UK for 25,495 pounds. EV Central says that placing such a large order gives them the ability to offer fantastic pricing at nearly 1/2 the recommended retail price in New Zealand, so why would the "full" price be so expensive in NZ?

Fred

Renault here don't yet sell the 41kWh Zoe as far as I know. Why so expensive? You'd have to ask Renault. Maybe to discourage sales while at the same time having a tick on the box? I don't know. But that 41kWh Zoe for $39k is damned attractive. I could save a LOT of money on petrol driving that one. :-)

Thanks for your reply. If Renault don't yet sell the 41kWh Zoe, would their official dealers service it? You would think that Renault would want to participate big time with a vehicle such as this instead of buyers having to deal with EV Central in Taupo. It just doesn't add up to me, what's going on, why would Renault want to discourage sales?

Similarly, you can't buy a new Nissan Leaf from Nissan, why aren't ALL the major brands getting in behind the EV "revolution", what's holding them back?

Also, if the Zoe's are sold with 1000k on the clock, who were the previous owners and where were they driven? I'm used to buying brand new, I don't like this farting around with used vehicles, even if they do only have supposedly a few kms on the clock!

Fred

tripper1000

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#1733611 9-Mar-2017 12:28

Thanks for your reply. If Renault don't yet sell the 41kWh Zoe, would their official dealers service it? You would think that Renault would want to participate big time with a vehicle such as this instead of buyers having to deal with EV Central in Taupo. It just doesn't add up to me, what's going on, why would Renault want to discourage sales?

Similarly, you can't buy a new Nissan Leaf from Nissan, why aren't ALL the major brands getting in behind the EV "revolution", what's holding them back?

Also, if the Zoe's are sold with 1000k on the clock, who were the previous owners and where were they driven? I'm used to buying brand new, I don't like this farting around with used vehicles, even if they do only have supposedly a few kms on the clock!

Fred

Subsidies.

In other countries EV's are heavily subsidised by the tax payer, here they're not.

Parallel importing of subsidised (near) new Leaf's from overseas undercut Nissan NZ by a hefty margin, so the economics didn't stack up for them. Nissan can't claim a subsidy from a European Government on a car that is ultimately sold in NZ, but private importer can (which is who the former owners are who are putting 1000kms on the clock that you speak of).

Renault would be suffering the same problem. Additionally Renault's are generally not popular in NZ so their dealer networks, spare parts holdings, mechanic training etc wouldn't have the same scales of economy, making introduction of an minor, low selling model, even tougher than a popular brand would experience.

Most kiwis are happy to fart around and accept 1000kms in order to save ~$10K or so, hence this market exists.

Linuxluver

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#1733872 9-Mar-2017 17:35

frednz:

Thanks for your reply. If Renault don't yet sell the 41kWh Zoe, would their official dealers service it? You would think that Renault would want to participate big time with a vehicle such as this instead of buyers having to deal with EV Central in Taupo. It just doesn't add up to me, what's going on, why would Renault want to discourage sales?

Similarly, you can't buy a new Nissan Leaf from Nissan, why aren't ALL the major brands getting in behind the EV "revolution", what's holding them back?

Also, if the Zoe's are sold with 1000k on the clock, who were the previous owners and where were they driven? I'm used to buying brand new, I don't like this farting around with used vehicles, even if they do only have supposedly a few kms on the clock!

Fred

The problem seems to be automakers with a huge exposure to "stranded assets" (all the stuff they use to make normal cars and everything that feeds into it and leads out of it).....that are all at risk if the world goes EV. They are being driven to make EVs by two forces: government regulation and competitive pressures, mainly from Tesla.

So what would a person do to *guarantee* the world goes EV? You'd buy the electric car made by the company one company with scale who don't make fossil-fuel cars: Tesla.

Tesla has no Plan B. They *must* make a great electric car or die. All the other automakers can whisper behind their hands to each other and obstruct EV progress for as long as possible, as much as possible.....while they separately work on the political problem. In the US, Trump is undoing any progress at the federal level against climate change and actively seeking ways to override state laws. He's even sabotaging the science that tracks its progress. The major automakers - virtually of them - are asking the Trump Administration to relax the emissions standards so they can carry on making CO2-emitting cars without interference. This is effectively an act of evil at this point in the development of climate change.

Tesla......is the only car maker standing out, with a fully integrated strategy for generating energy to storing it, to charge automobiles....the whole set of offerings and services.

If you're serious about going electric, ultimately you buy a Tesla. Get a cheap EV today.....LEAF, Renault, whatever.....and make the second car a Renault or some others, but the genuine champion of zero emissions should come first. Buy a Tesla as your next new car.

I can't see any other way to move forward.....and prevent backsliding.

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frednz

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#1733875 9-Mar-2017 17:41

tripper1000:

Thanks for your reply. If Renault don't yet sell the 41kWh Zoe, would their official dealers service it? You would think that Renault would want to participate big time with a vehicle such as this instead of buyers having to deal with EV Central in Taupo. It just doesn't add up to me, what's going on, why would Renault want to discourage sales?

Similarly, you can't buy a new Nissan Leaf from Nissan, why aren't ALL the major brands getting in behind the EV "revolution", what's holding them back?

Also, if the Zoe's are sold with 1000k on the clock, who were the previous owners and where were they driven? I'm used to buying brand new, I don't like this farting around with used vehicles, even if they do only have supposedly a few kms on the clock!

Fred

Subsidies.

In other countries EV's are heavily subsidised by the tax payer, here they're not.

Parallel importing of subsidised (near) new Leaf's from overseas undercut Nissan NZ by a hefty margin, so the economics didn't stack up for them. Nissan can't claim a subsidy from a European Government on a car that is ultimately sold in NZ, but private importer can (which is who the former owners are who are putting 1000kms on the clock that you speak of).

Renault would be suffering the same problem. Additionally Renault's are generally not popular in NZ so their dealer networks, spare parts holdings, mechanic training etc wouldn't have the same scales of economy, making introduction of an minor, low selling model, even tougher than a popular brand would experience.

Most kiwis are happy to fart around and accept 1000kms in order to save ~$10K or so, hence this market exists.

I strongly doubt whether "most" kiwis are prepared to buy second-hand electric vehicles in order to save money.

I think a lot of kiwis prefer to buy new vehicles for the peace of mind that the new-car guarantee provides. For example, it ensures that dealers are properly equipped and trained to deal with new EVs when they need servicing. For example, if you live in Wellington and buy a second-hand electric Zoe from EV Central in Taupo, what dealer in Wellington is properly equipped and trained to service the vehicle to the high standard expected by buyers who buy a $40,000 vehicle? And when you sell an EV, a NZ new EV is probably going to hold its value more than a second-hand EV.

If the NZ Government does not currently subsidise electric vehicles to the extent that overseas countries do, then we can't expect the sales of EV's to reach the Government's stated target of 64,000 EV's by 2021. And why should we expect overseas governments to subsidise the cost of new EVs in NZ - surely we can't rely on this situation continuing? Don't you think the NZ Government needs to urgently review its position on providing subsidies for new EVs?

Fred

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#1733876 9-Mar-2017 17:42

tripper1000:

Thanks for your reply. If Renault don't yet sell the 41kWh Zoe, would their official dealers service it? You would think that Renault would want to participate big time with a vehicle such as this instead of buyers having to deal with EV Central in Taupo. It just doesn't add up to me, what's going on, why would Renault want to discourage sales?

Similarly, you can't buy a new Nissan Leaf from Nissan, why aren't ALL the major brands getting in behind the EV "revolution", what's holding them back?

Also, if the Zoe's are sold with 1000k on the clock, who were the previous owners and where were they driven? I'm used to buying brand new, I don't like this farting around with used vehicles, even if they do only have supposedly a few kms on the clock!

Fred

Subsidies.

In other countries EV's are heavily subsidised by the tax payer, here they're not.

Parallel importing of subsidised (near) new Leaf's from overseas undercut Nissan NZ by a hefty margin, so the economics didn't stack up for them. Nissan can't claim a subsidy from a European Government on a car that is ultimately sold in NZ, but private importer can (which is who the former owners are who are putting 1000kms on the clock that you speak of).

Renault would be suffering the same problem. Additionally Renault's are generally not popular in NZ so their dealer networks, spare parts holdings, mechanic training etc wouldn't have the same scales of economy, making introduction of an minor, low selling model, even tougher than a popular brand would experience.

Most kiwis are happy to fart around and accept 1000kms in order to save ~$10K or so, hence this market exists.

Slight correction / refinement. Those subsidies are typically funded by levies on emitters, not via regular taxation. Things like a carbon tax. If you don't emit, you don't have to pay it. But a tax on emissions provides revenue to subsidise / support / enable the ways to stop emitting.....and at the same time an incentive to stop emitting.

It's very effective...which is why the fossil-fuel industry fight carbon taxes tooth and nail.

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frednz

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#1734746 11-Mar-2017 12:43

Linuxluver:

frednz:

Thanks for your reply. If Renault don't yet sell the 41kWh Zoe, would their official dealers service it? You would think that Renault would want to participate big time with a vehicle such as this instead of buyers having to deal with EV Central in Taupo. It just doesn't add up to me, what's going on, why would Renault want to discourage sales?

Similarly, you can't buy a new Nissan Leaf from Nissan, why aren't ALL the major brands getting in behind the EV "revolution", what's holding them back?

Also, if the Zoe's are sold with 1000k on the clock, who were the previous owners and where were they driven? I'm used to buying brand new, I don't like this farting around with used vehicles, even if they do only have supposedly a few kms on the clock!

Fred

The problem seems to be automakers with a huge exposure to "stranded assets" (all the stuff they use to make normal cars and everything that feeds into it and leads out of it).....that are all at risk if the world goes EV. They are being driven to make EVs by two forces: government regulation and competitive pressures, mainly from Tesla.

So what would a person do to *guarantee* the world goes EV? You'd buy the electric car made by the company one company with scale who don't make fossil-fuel cars: Tesla.

Tesla has no Plan B. They *must* make a great electric car or die. All the other automakers can whisper behind their hands to each other and obstruct EV progress for as long as possible, as much as possible.....while they separately work on the political problem. In the US, Trump is undoing any progress at the federal level against climate change and actively seeking ways to override state laws. He's even sabotaging the science that tracks its progress. The major automakers - virtually of them - are asking the Trump Administration to relax the emissions standards so they can carry on making CO2-emitting cars without interference. This is effectively an act of evil at this point in the development of climate change.

Tesla......is the only car maker standing out, with a fully integrated strategy for generating energy to storaging it, to charge automobiles....the whole set of offerings and services.

If you're serious about going electric, ultimately you buy a Tesla. Get a cheap EV today.....LEAF, Renault, whatever.....and make the second car a Renault or some others, but the genuine champion of zero emissions should come first. Buy a Tesla as your next new car.

I can't see any other way to move forward.....and prevent backsliding.

Can you tell us what Tesla models are available in NZ now and what they retail for?

Also, do you think second hand Renault Zoe 41kWh vehicles can be serviced now by Renault dealers throughout NZ, or do they require specialist parts etc that would not be readily available?

Thanks

Fred

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#1734757 11-Mar-2017 13:17

You can go to the Tesla NZ website and configure your car - as you do so you will see all the info like range and cost and estimated delivery. All looks very promising except for the prices which need to come down before most can afford them

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#1734912 11-Mar-2017 17:39

old3eyes:

Interesting "While cars with combustion engines are heavily taxed, EVs are exempt from almost all taxes." Wonder how much a new Leaf costs there??

A new Leaf (24 KWH) starts about about $34,000 NZD. Cars are expensive in Norway, so that is a cheap price for a car that size.

The 30 KWH model of the Leaf starts at about $38,000 NZD. You can get a used Leaf from $15,000 NZD (2012 model with about 92,000 KM on the meter).

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