EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2742833 11-Jul-2021 23:03

tdgeek:

the RUC is a freebie right now.Do we know what happens in 2024? No. Do we anticipate RUC, aka road maintenance fees for ALL road users, will remain freebies for EV's in the very long term? I would hope not. Its a tax on users of the roads.

I think you can expect that any government that want to reduce CO2 emissions is going to make sure that EVs come out better than ICE cars for the foreseeable future.

If you don't incentivise people by making it more economical to buy EVs you are not going to see any serious uptake in NZ. We are far behind already here and I doubt we will be in a situation in 2024 that warrants not making road taxes lighter / nil on EVs.

Unfortunately there will be a relative low percentage of the total cars in NZ in 2024 that will be EVs. At some point in the future the prices and selection of cars will skew towards EVs, but I think it will take longer.

So I think the odds of EVs having to pay the same RUC as ICE cars in 2024 in NZ is pretty low. At least if we have a government that want to reduce CO2 emissions.

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#2742835 11-Jul-2021 23:23

jarledb:

tdgeek:

the RUC is a freebie right now.Do we know what happens in 2024? No. Do we anticipate RUC, aka road maintenance fees for ALL road users, will remain freebies for EV's in the very long term? I would hope not. Its a tax on users of the roads.

I think you can expect that any government that want to reduce CO2 emissions is going to make sure that EVs come out better than ICE cars for the foreseeable future.

If you don't incentivise people by making it more economical to buy EVs you are not going to see any serious uptake in NZ. We are far behind already here and I doubt we will be in a situation in 2024 that warrants not making road taxes lighter / nil on EVs.

Unfortunately there will be a relative low percentage of the total cars in NZ in 2024 that will be EVs. At some point in the future the prices and selection of cars will skew towards EVs, but I think it will take longer.

So I think the odds of EVs having to pay the same RUC as ICE cars in 2024 in NZ is pretty low. At least if we have a government that want to reduce CO2 emissions.

I agree with all that. Given how many models of EV are available now, and how well Norway has done, you would think that catchup would be a lot easier now. We have free RUC which saves 2/3 of the EV fuel cost. Lower maintenance. Feebate. Despite chip shortages, cars are still being made, Tesla IIRC has had higher production. The percentage of EV's of our monthly imports should be increasing now and at compounding rates. But I agree, we won't see much between now and 2024, so something isn't working here. RUC will stay at nil as the lost revenue is immaterial, Govt will talk the talk, but I doubt there will be much traction. We would have to ask why.

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#2742836 12-Jul-2021 00:12

Norway taxes cars heavily. That has been true for a long time, even before EVs. So the incentive of having zero tax on EVs in Norway has made EVs cheaper than ICE cars.

Some examples:

VW Golf (ICE): From $58,000 NZD
VW ID.3 (EV): From $45,000 NZD

BMW X3 (ICE): From $109,000 NZD (Only available as Hybrid in Norway).
BMW iX3 (EV): From $94,000 NZD

That is just a couple of examples on cars that are pretty similar between ICE and EV. So as you can see, people are used to having to pay a lot for cars so the tax break on EVs have had a huge impact.

Petrol and Diesel is also more expensive in Norway, so that is another added bonus for EVs. Tollroads are also more common and have become quite expensive for ICE cars but still relatively cheap for EVs.

If NZ wanted to be serious about flipping people from buying ICE to EVs, that is what should be done here too. Create taxes that make ICE cars in general more expensive than EVs.

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#2742844 12-Jul-2021 07:12

jarledb:

If NZ wanted to be serious about flipping people from buying ICE to EVs, that is what should be done here too. Create taxes that make ICE cars in general more expensive than EVs.

I could not agree more. Purchase price is the barrier. I have no issues at all taxing ICE heavily but you need to not penalise that those where there is no EV equivalent. I dont buy comments that instead of a Ranger the farmer/tradie gets a $200,000 EV that can pull and carry the same loads. Plus RUC can go back to normal as road maintenance costs aren't based on the engine type

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#2742871 12-Jul-2021 09:29

tdgeek:

I could not agree more. Purchase price is the barrier. I have no issues at all taxing ICE heavily but you need to not penalise that those where there is no EV equivalent. I dont buy comments that instead of a Ranger the farmer/tradie gets a $200,000 EV that can pull and carry the same loads. Plus RUC can go back to normal as road maintenance costs aren't based on the engine type

No one is saying they need to buy a $200,000 EV. Ford has already shown us that they're capable of making an EV ute/pickup that is around the same price as the Ranger with the F150 Lightning.

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#2742878 12-Jul-2021 09:37

Obraik:

No one is saying they need to buy a $200,000 EV. Ford has already shown us that they're capable of making an EV ute/pickup that is around the same price as the Ranger with the F150 Lightning.

Similar range? Same towing and weight carrying specs? When will they be here?

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GV27

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#2742880 12-Jul-2021 09:42

The Rivians are testing down south. Not cheap though in the American market.

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#2742881 12-Jul-2021 09:45

tdgeek:

Obraik:

No one is saying they need to buy a $200,000 EV. Ford has already shown us that they're capable of making an EV ute/pickup that is around the same price as the Ranger with the F150 Lightning.

Similar range? Same towing and weight carrying specs? When will they be here?

Rivian may well have a NZ presence earlier than the Ford 150. Very capable vehicles which were very well presented in the Long Way Up series.

The Rivian ute and SUV are currently undergoing winter testing in the South Island.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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#2742883 12-Jul-2021 09:50

tdgeek:

Similar range? Same towing and weight carrying specs? When will they be here?

Yes. Superior towing and carrying specs. Unlikely that the F150 will be here but Ford has said the platform will be carried over to many of their vehicles, including the Ranger.

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#2742884 12-Jul-2021 09:54

Obraik:

tdgeek:

Similar range? Same towing and weight carrying specs? When will they be here?

Yes. Superior towing and carrying specs. Unlikely that the F150 will be here but Ford has said the platform will be carried over to many of their vehicles, including the Ranger.

That's very good. I guess they need to be here soon given the feebate tax. A tax is fine as long as there is a like for like option, so if a farmer/tradie chooses to go ICE when there is an EV equivalent at a similar price, they can pay the tax. But they need to have that choice which I feel is fair enough

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#2742896 12-Jul-2021 10:31

HarmLessSolutions:

Rivian may well have a NZ presence earlier than the Ford 150. Very capable vehicles which were very well presented in the Long Way Up series.

The Rivian ute and SUV are currently undergoing winter testing in the South Island.

Just because they are being tested in the South Island dosen't mean they're coming here. A lot of manufacturers do their winter testing in the South Island on models they never import for sale into the New Zealand market.

Our sales numbers are to the right of the decimal point for manufacturers. Setting up a support network for your product in a market that small doesn't make economic sense till you are well established in markets that will produce much better economies of scale.

Sadly we will get what we're given when we're given it.

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#2742898 12-Jul-2021 10:33

Rivian will come here (they have said so before) but not for a while. And will be $140k up. They are not a work truck they are lifestyle toys.

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#2742921 12-Jul-2021 11:37

tdgeek:

I could not agree more. Purchase price is the barrier. I have no issues at all taxing ICE heavily but you need to not penalise that those where there is no EV equivalent. I dont buy comments that instead of a Ranger the farmer/tradie gets a $200,000 EV that can pull and carry the same loads. Plus RUC can go back to normal as road maintenance costs aren't based on the engine type

Even in the absence of EV's the fee bate scheme is still a good way to reduce fleet emissions. It encourages buyers into more efficient vehicle models and types.

I don't buy that it is to onerous for commercial users. For a commercial user that wants / needs a high emissions vehicle the fee's arn't massive compared to the cost of the vehicle, and this approach to drooping our fleet emissions is likely friendlier to them than other approaches we could have used such as an outright ban on high emissions vesicles, or hiking the emissions component of fuel taxes.

I also think the impact of the feebate on commercial ute buyers is overblown:

There are already 2wd Utes on the NZ market that are in the free band (most 2wd rangers with the 2.0 biturbo engine).

There are already 4wd Utes on the NZ market that have a sub $900 fee (Navara)

There are 4wd Utes on other markets that have emissions in the free zone (Ford ranger 2.0L diesel Ecoblue in the UK).

If there is demand from buyers ford will bring the latter to NZ to give buyers a fee free option. I suspect ford NZ already has this planned (or some kind of engine re tune to get emissions below the threshold) but is keeping quiet as people snap up rangers in record numbers.

As a final point 6 months of warning was given, so people have been able to snap up higher emitting Utes (3.2 rangers etc).

There is also the option of waiting and using current vehicles until more efficient utes come to market. Ranger PHEV is expected late 2022 to early 2023. Toyota NZ hope to bring a hilux hybrid (not plug in) to the market by the end of 2021.

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/a-hybrid-version-of-the-toyota-hilux-ute-is-on-its-way/

Obraik:

No one is saying they need to buy a $200,000 EV. Ford has already shown us that they're capable of making an EV ute/pickup that is around the same price as the Ranger with the F150 Lightning.

That's a bit of a stretch.

The F-150 Lightning isn't yet shipping, I don't think ford is building production vehicles yet. Deliveries aren't expected until March - June 2022.
It's not going to be build in RHD, so not relevant for NZ anyway.
It's not the same price as a ranger. Ranger in the USA starts from USD25,070. F150 Lightning starts from USD39,974. (As a rough rule of thumb double the USD price to find the NZD price after GST, freight, small market premium, CGA costs etc. If the F150 lightning was to be built in RHD and sold here it would be roughly NZ$80k - $180k depending on spec level). It will be in hot demand, and it seems EV makers tend to only make high spec versions available early in production too.
Higher spec ranger's are only 300kg from the 3500kg GVM threshold of light vehicles. Weight penality in long range EV utes is going to be well over 300kg, so manufactures will need to chose between eating into payload, or clasifing the vehicle as a heavy vehicle (90km/h speed limit, COF etc)
We don't yet know if ford has the ability to supply this vehicle in decent volumes.

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#2742923 12-Jul-2021 11:41

^ exactly.

It'll be a selling angle to tell the buyer its a fee free ute. They already exist but are not imported to NZ.

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#2742927 12-Jul-2021 11:44

Technofreak:

Just because they are being tested in the South Island dosen't mean they're coming here. A lot of manufacturers do their winter testing in the South Island on models they never import for sale into the New Zealand market.

Our sales numbers are to the right of the decimal point for manufacturers. Setting up a support network for your product in a market that small doesn't make economic sense till you are well established in markets that will produce much better economies of scale.

Sadly we will get what we're given when we're given it.

It's confirmed for Australia

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/112233308/rivian-electric-ute-confirmed-for-australia

Its widely expected NZ will piggy back of them. (to date NZ has done pretty well in EV sales vs Australia even ignoring the population difference).

As others have said, it is firmly pitched as a lifestyle rather than work vehicle. Lowish payload (800kg), short bed, crazy good performance, very high price.

More likely to be a range rover competitor than a ranger competitor, but possibly could tempt some raptor and dodge ram 1500 buyers with it's epic acceleration.

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