Clean car package

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Clean car package

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Ultimate Geek
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#2729284 15-Jun-2021 18:31

Until NZ has a network of reliable and plentiful chargers, I don't believe the uptake will be as much as first thought. While many EVs and hybrids are fine for short trips, there will not be a great uptake in EVs for the mobile/travelling families for a while yet. EVs are still far more expensive than ICEs and the Government is trying to close the price gap between them. The lower-middle class should not be disadvantaged for the gain on upper-middle class. It is an excellent theoretical concept, but in reality not so much.

tdgeek

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#2729285 15-Jun-2021 18:31

Obraik:

Sure, the 1 in 10 person buying a brand new Ford Ranger who actually needs its ute features might not be able to find an EV equivalent before the end of the year, but they can help someone else reduce their emissions in their place.

Is that fair? And is this 1 in 10 a fact? There is no need to reduce all FF emissions, the Earth actually requires FF emissions. But if you wish to cause extra costs on this and that, that have no choice thats a problem. People will whine about it. In the medieval days out comes the bows and arrows. Today, out comes higher costs, where everyone pays more because of a problem that cannot be fixed. In the right now world you would turn off FF power generation tomorrow, but its required right now. What I find frustrating is that we need to fix FF right now. Thats a dream. You need to work on issues that can be fixed right now, and those that can be fixed in 10 years and so on. EV's are a 30 year plan, maybe 20. methane is a 5 year plan and so on. Its becoming all greeny and all political and less science.

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#2729292 15-Jun-2021 18:46

halper86:

Until NZ has a network of reliable and plentiful chargers, I don't believe the uptake will be as much as first thought. While many EVs and hybrids are fine for short trips, there will not be a great uptake in EVs for the mobile/travelling families for a while yet. EVs are still far more expensive than ICEs and the Government is trying to close the price gap between them. The lower-middle class should not be disadvantaged for the gain on upper-middle class. It is an excellent theoretical concept, but in reality not so much.

AFAIK we do have a excellent charger setup. I agree on the rest. Look, I can afford any EV for cash, but the prices are stupid. I love solar PV but for most the same applies.. If you want real green savings you go after the low hanging fruit thats the used market. More cars more savings. Im sure any Government with theor salt can band together with car dealers, ship whatever we can here of used EV's and flood the market. Businesses etc can buy their own. Go after methane, and so on. Thats assuming we want real gains.

Obraik

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#2729293 15-Jun-2021 18:47

tdgeek:

Obraik:

Yes, you've reiterated why public transport isn't a quick fix to our transport emissions.

It actually is. You can easily get people off cars, you can't get many people into EV's this year or next year or the year after that. But off course EV's are cool so that will save the world be 2026. The fact is, by 2026, EV:ICE in NZ will not be largely different from what it is now.

How quickly do you think a public transport network can be built that people would drop their personal vehicles for?

I don't think busses are going to cut it or people would be using the existing bus networks. Expanding the train network or adding light rail is what would get more people out of their cars but that is not a quick fix

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#2729295 15-Jun-2021 18:54

halper86:

Until NZ has a network of reliable and plentiful chargers, I don't believe the uptake will be as much as first thought. While many EVs and hybrids are fine for short trips, there will not be a great uptake in EVs for the mobile/travelling families for a while yet. EVs are still far more expensive than ICEs and the Government is trying to close the price gap between them. The lower-middle class should not be disadvantaged for the gain on upper-middle class. It is an excellent theoretical concept, but in reality not so much.

While the network needs to grow as more people make the switch, it's quite good for those who have EVs today. There really is only a small handful of black spots around the whole country and that really only affects the very short ranged old vehicles that are designed as city cars. Newer EVs with their greater range are not a problem in NZ.

Is anyone actually disadvantaged by this? I think it would be a bit of a stretch to argue that they are.

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tdgeek

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#2729297 15-Jun-2021 19:01

Obraik:

How quickly do you think a public transport network can be built that people would drop their personal vehicles for?

I don't think busses are going to cut it or people would be using the existing bus networks. Expanding the train network or adding light rail is what would get more people out of their cars but that is not a quick fix

None of this is easy as humans are lazy and need carrots. Penalise car use, incentivise PT use. Same premise as the EV feebate. Ive had to go to hospital to visit most days recently, if the buses were there I'd be all over it. Parking is ridiculous. If they wanted to penalise cars, make buses cheaper and easier, obviously subsidised that would be a win. Cars, as we all need cars, then yes kick ICE in the b@lls and incentive EV's. Steak and cows milk, that needs to go, but that wont happen as we are stupid.

PT is for me isn't great. I can catch a 60 bus but it goes on a tiki tour. Or I can also walk 20 minutes and get the other one that goes straight to the CBD (ChCh Halswell) But it doesnt. Get the 60 bus into town cheap, and I'd take that over our cars or motorbike any day. Who pays?? ICE cars. PT has too rule, otherwise its 5 steps forward and 4 back

Its a mindset thing. Easy PT is in many cases easier than driving. Add in priority lanes, priority green lights, you can easily make PT easy.

EDIT no I'm not a public transport fan, Im the hop in the car and go fan.

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tdgeek

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#2729298 15-Jun-2021 19:05

Obraik:

While the network needs to grow as more people make the switch, it's quite good for those who have EVs today. There really is only a small handful of black spots around the whole country and that really only affects the very short ranged old vehicles that are designed as city cars. Newer EVs with their greater range are not a problem in NZ.

Is anyone actually disadvantaged by this? I think it would be a bit of a stretch to argue that they are.

Agree, range isnt the issue it used to be. When I go ChCh to Dunners, it would be annoying to stop, but its no drama to head off and match lunch with charge.

Delorean

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#2729301 15-Jun-2021 19:16

Handle9:

So nothing should be done for the next 10 years?

not at all. This reminds me of the Muldoon era! - the think big projects which almost bankrupted our country. Subsidies were also commonplace in that era, so was carless days.. what did that achieve?

Car manufactures are already moving towards EV without government intervention. It will be the future. Just by robbing from the Ranger buyer to subsidies, the EV buyer doesn't make sense in the short term..

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#2729320 15-Jun-2021 20:09

Delorean:

not at all. This reminds me of the Muldoon era! - the think big projects which almost bankrupted our country. Subsidies were also commonplace in that era, so was carless days.. what did that achieve?

Car manufactures are already moving towards EV without government intervention. It will be the future. Just by robbing from the Ranger buyer to subsidies, the EV buyer doesn't make sense in the short term..

Ultimately, this won't be a subsidy though. It's intended to be a self-funding rebate. The increasing intensity of the effects of climate change will bankrupt the country, so directing some funds towards reducing one of our largest contributors of climate change is not a bad idea. Infact, we're late to the party since nearly every other developed country has had measures to accelerate EV uptake.

Considering Rangers are one of the more polluting vehicles on the road and are owned by a lot of people that don't actually need a Ute, I think it makes perfect sense that they pay their way.

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Delorean

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#2729337 15-Jun-2021 20:41

Obraik:

Delorean:

not at all. This reminds me of the Muldoon era! - the think big projects which almost bankrupted our country. Subsidies were also commonplace in that era, so was carless days.. what did that achieve?

Car manufactures are already moving towards EV without government intervention. It will be the future. Just by robbing from the Ranger buyer to subsidies, the EV buyer doesn't make sense in the short term..

Ultimately, this won't be a subsidy though. It's intended to be a self-funding rebate. The increasing intensity of the effects of climate change will bankrupt the country, so directing some funds towards reducing one of our largest contributors of climate change is not a bad idea. Infact, we're late to the party since nearly every other developed country has had measures to accelerate EV uptake.

Considering Rangers are one of the more polluting vehicles on the road and are owned by a lot of people that don't actually need a Ute, I think it makes perfect sense that they pay their way.

Agree that the Ranger being used as the Remuera Tractor are the ones that need to be taxed, they need to pay more! it's the farmers who have no alternative, as they don't have EV utes as of yet!

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Obraik

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#2729353 15-Jun-2021 20:51

Delorean:

Agree that the Ranger being used as the Remuera Tractor are the ones that need to be taxed, they need to pay more! it's the farmers who have no alternative, as they don't have EV utes as of yet!

It amuses me that while they serve to lose the most from climate change, farmers kick up the biggest stink when they have to do the tiniest thing to help combat it.

There's an easy solution to not having to pay the fee/tax; don't buy a new ute and keep your old one.

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Handle9

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#2729373 15-Jun-2021 22:06

Delorean:

Handle9:

So nothing should be done for the next 10 years?

not at all. This reminds me of the Muldoon era! - the think big projects which almost bankrupted our country. Subsidies were also commonplace in that era, so was carless days.. what did that achieve?

Car manufactures are already moving towards EV without government intervention. It will be the future. Just by robbing from the Ranger buyer to subsidies, the EV buyer doesn't make sense in the short term..

You seem to be comparing things that aren't at all the same.

Think Big and carless days were a response to the 1970s energy crisis. Subsidies were something completely different.

This type of revenue neutral incentive scheme is entirely normal in most countries.

mattwnz

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#2729389 15-Jun-2021 23:52

Obraik:

Yes, you've reiterated why public transport isn't a quick fix to our transport emissions.

Bu the problem is that even today it isn't being planned for. I would have thought under a climate emergency, that the goverenmtn would be ensuring councils and district plans have these things introduced under urgency. Instead NZers basically need a car if they want to live a full life. Or know someone who has one to drive them.

mattwnz

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#2729391 15-Jun-2021 23:58

tdgeek:

halper86:

Until NZ has a network of reliable and plentiful chargers, I don't believe the uptake will be as much as first thought. While many EVs and hybrids are fine for short trips, there will not be a great uptake in EVs for the mobile/travelling families for a while yet. EVs are still far more expensive than ICEs and the Government is trying to close the price gap between them. The lower-middle class should not be disadvantaged for the gain on upper-middle class. It is an excellent theoretical concept, but in reality not so much.

AFAIK we do have a excellent charger setup. I agree on the rest. Look, I can afford any EV for cash, but the prices are stupid.

I think the model 3 is getting close to good value with the subsidy, although we do always seem to pay a lot more in NZ compared to the US. It is a nice luxury car. My issue though is build quality and reliability rather than price, as they are a tech company more than a car company. Once Toyota start building proper EVs, other Japanese brands will follow, and that should then offer the reliability we need from this tech. Hyundais look quite good, but very expensive. Some of the Europeon EVs also look nice, but very expensive and unknown reliability. But one problem at the moment is there is a chip shortage which is causing a lot of problems with supply.

mattwnz

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#2729392 16-Jun-2021 00:01

Delorean:

Obraik:

Ultimately, this won't be a subsidy though. It's intended to be a self-funding rebate. The increasing intensity of the effects of climate change will bankrupt the country, so directing some funds towards reducing one of our largest contributors of climate change is not a bad idea. Infact, we're late to the party since nearly every other developed country has had measures to accelerate EV uptake.

Considering Rangers are one of the more polluting vehicles on the road and are owned by a lot of people that don't actually need a Ute, I think it makes perfect sense that they pay their way.

Agree that the Ranger being used as the Remuera Tractor are the ones that need to be taxed, they need to pay more! it's the farmers who have no alternative, as they don't have EV utes as of yet!

Seems many people buy them for weekend trips and offroad stuff, rather than for work. But how do they know what people buy them for, unless buying them through a business? Maybe we need to tax households with more than 2 cars? But IMO some of the recent law changes, including this one, is getting very nanny state again. Kind of reminds me of the Clark Labour government, when they previously banned incandescent light bulbs and the smacking law, and ended up getting voted out due to them being too nanny state.

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