Auckland Transport: Hop & Snapper. Whats the real issue

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#675359 22-Aug-2012 09:59

kyhwana2: There's one universal system that works on buses and trains everywhere: Cash.

which is why when Banks introduce Touch-to-pay technologies more widely it will become part of the transport solution.

Either the Councils or Government take effective control of this and introduce a national standard that lets us use Snapper style cards nationwide, or eventually we'll vote by preferring Bank based solutions.

Despite your personal politics, a real opportunity has been lost here for an agency to lead a locally owned project that would accommodate a variety of transport models used across the country. We're a very small entity on the international stage but we have the variety and diversity within the country to be able to develop and produce working solutions in these areas that are easily scaled to match real global requirements, and better many others that are already out there.

If Government is looking for ways to grow business it's by finding home grown solutions to these types of problems, and investing in them, rather than contracting in overseas companies and spending our money off shore. Airways is a good example of this working properly

In Christchurch it seems the Council predetermines the routes, and tenders them out. The operators all accept a standard e-ticket, which can be topped up at a lot of local places, including libraries, and fares are generally based on a Maximum amount a day. (ie: once you've spent so much on tickets in a day the rest of the travel is effectively free). It's a system that is: common and transparent across operators, easy to use, and pretty much lets you know what the maximum you can spent on transport in a day is. And it also extends outside the local council areas for some services (commuters from Kaiapoi and Lincoln for example). It seems like a system that someone has thought about.

But it would be nice if I could just use the same card in other places so I could grab a coffee at the airport whilst waiting for my flight then use the card on arrival in (say) Wellington to get into town, do my business, and head back. Someone's going to grab and manipulate the data, would you rather it be the transport company, the transport agency, a Bank or some other entity?

sbiddle

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#675360 22-Aug-2012 10:15

oxnsox:
Despite your personal politics, a real opportunity has been lost here for an agency to lead a locally owned project that would accommodate a variety of transport models used across the country.

Exactly.

Both Snapper and Thales have massive offshore requirements, particularly for data processing. The opportunity for a NZ provider to in effect build a solution using open standards and off the shelf hardware with all processing remaining in NZ would have been awesome.

spacedog

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#675366 22-Aug-2012 10:23

kyhwana2: There's one universal system that works on buses and trains everywhere: Cash.

Cash is ubiquitous but it is also becoming an outdated method for payment. New Zealand is a real testament to how little cash is used given the wide adoption of EFTPOS.

Cash also has costs and overhead associated with it. It is slow, drivers have to carry and make change, it slows boarding and de-boarding of passengers and there is significant time/labor costs involved in the administration of cash (transport of the cash itself, counting the cash in/out, recording that information, etc). This is why a bus fare on the Link in Auckland charges me $1.62 on my HOP card to get from downtown to Parnell instead of the $1.90 if I pay cash.

Mind you, I was extremely hacked off that I had to pay $10 for my HOP card and I have to pay a top-up fee. But in the long run, I still save money over paying cash.

What I'm still utterly beside myself is with how badly this is screwed up by AT and the lost dollars by the tax paying citizens. That is inexcusable and someone ought to be resigning and the bleeding needs to be stopped before the patient dies on the operating table.

NonprayingMantis

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#675375 22-Aug-2012 10:39

kyhwana2: There's one universal system that works on buses and trains everywhere: Cash.

it's also the most annoying and time consuming.

Toiletduck

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#675416 22-Aug-2012 11:40

Unfortunately this is a (another) good example of central Govt interfering with local Govt.

I don't see central govt. picking up the pieces

kyhwana2

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#675457 22-Aug-2012 13:05

Kyanar:
kyhwana2: There's one universal system that works on buses and trains everywhere: Cash.

Monthly Discovery Pass too. They talk about integrated ticketing, but it already exists, it's just not convoluted and unnecessarily technological enough for them. I walk onto a bus, train, or ferry in Auckland, wave the card at the driver/conductor, and sit down. No tagging on, tagging off, fumbling for cash, or anything like that.

Does that work in Hamilton, Wellington or Christchurch? (Or anywhere else)

kyhwana2

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#675460 22-Aug-2012 13:09

NonprayingMantis:
kyhwana2: There's one universal system that works on buses and trains everywhere: Cash.

it's also the most annoying and time consuming.

True, but you only need cash, rather than having to buy and top up (then remember how much you had/has it expired?) a different card for each city or form of public transport.

A nationwide integrated system would be the best outcome, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. So, cash it is.

So next time someone pays cash and you're annoyed at them, don't blame them.

(I was in wellington for beervana last weekend. I paid cash for the buses because I only used them twice and my Hamilton BusIT card doesn't work down there. As an example)

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Linuxluver

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#675799 23-Aug-2012 09:02

spacedog: Reading this thread and staring at another year of increasing rates bills from Auckland on my desk and seeing that ARTA has to pay Thales $627k per month for the stalled development, has me spitting nails.

Seriously, Auckland is the most fubar city I have lived in for wasteful spending and lack of accountability. There is simply no accountability in the council. I am utterly convinced the dysfunction with the ARTA and the council in Auckland is systemic.

Don't blame the Council. Make sure you know how the Council REALLY works and how CCOs REALLY work....before blaming the wrong people.

Please look at how National and ACT structured the new city after amalgamation. The Auckland Council - BY DESIGN - has little oversight of the (seriously mis-named) "Council Controlled Organisations" (CCOs).

The Council is required by law to rationalise rates and water pricing across the Auckland region. This was going to be the result mo matter who was elected to Council to take the blame for what National and ACT did.

The National Party did everything they could do to limit democratic oversight of CCOs. Oh..and the heads of those CCOs were appointed by Hide and the National Party...not the Auckland Council. This is why the Ports of Auckland got themselves in a completely unecessary and costly mess with the unions. Ideology in the CCO leadership colliding with reality.

They also inflicted First Past the Post on Auckland voters.....resulting in 62.5% of votes cast in 2010 electing not a single person to Council.

Of the 20 Councillors, 13 of them didn't even get 30% of the vote in their wards. Fifteen of then didn't even get 40%. In Albany Ward over 80% of votes cast didn't elect *anyone*. In Whau and North Shore Wards 70% of votes elected no one. They were all cast for people who were not elected.

What was SUPPOSED to happen was Mayor John Banks and a C & R Council were to to privatise the CCOs and cut services - outsourcing them to the private sector if they were delivered at all.

In other words, cash for cronies....the whole aim of the amalgamation was the defacto private confiscation of public assets.

That didn't happen....so now the government is trying to legislate "small government" on local councils and FORCE them to sell public assets.

Gerry Brownlee, the legislated Dictator of Christchurch, is typical. He has made it clear several times in recent weeks his view of democracy is that public debate is what happens AFTER He has Decided.

If you vote for the National Party you're voting against democratic oversight and against your own interests.

If you did it before....for the sake of New Zealand...don't do it ever again. Neo-liberalism doesn't work. It just provides a platform for the rich to get richer...and to take over what the public has built up over generations.

Please pay attention, people. haven't we had more than enough of being roadkill on the highway of life? It can cost you dearly to not know what's going on...and you risk end up blaming the people left to clean up the mess...and actually voting for the people who made the mess. Stop it. Don't do it any more. Pay attention, if only out of self defence.

Being sleepy Hobbits clearly isn't working.

Make sure you know how the Council REALLY works and how CCOs REALLY work....before blaming the wrong people.

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Linuxluver

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#675806 23-Aug-2012 09:15

NonprayingMantis:
kyhwana2: There's one universal system that works on buses and trains everywhere: Cash.

it's also the most annoying and time consuming.

The easiest way is to buy a weekly or monthly pass to the services you use.

For example. The $40/week "Northern Pass" (Lower Zone) would get me onto all the buses and trains I'm likely to use in my daily routine....and no Snapper required. No bogus penalty fares. No worries about tagging on and off or whether I have enough money on the card.

The whole electronic ticketing thing is a gross waste of money. Just set the fares / passes right across the whole system and you do not need any of it.

There should be a daily pass for $10 or $12 or $15 that lets you ride on anything, anywhere. Just wave the little cardboard ticket with the date printed on it at the driver.

....unless the aim is surveillance. The Cubic Corporation has been caught out in the "Trapwire" scandal....using CCTV networks and ticketing systems it installs (globally - not just in the US) to track the movement of people and pass the information to the US NSA and CIA. Sounds like fantasy.....but unfortunately, it is reality.

Maybe this is why these electronic, non-transferable systems are being introduced. No doubt they would also have the capability to remotely disable your card if they want to stop you moving around....and force you to walk.

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Monza

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#675920 23-Aug-2012 13:27

What is NZ's obsession with doing everything at the dairy? Topping up my Hop card is a real nuisance as I have to go out of my way to a Hop card dairy, to be stung 25c on top of this just takes the cake. Is online top ups in the pipeline as well as one unified card?

huckster

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#675930 23-Aug-2012 13:48

Monza: What is NZ's obsession with doing everything at the dairy? Topping up my Hop card is a real nuisance as I have to go out of my way to a Hop card dairy, to be stung 25c on top of this just takes the cake. Is online top ups in the pipeline as well as one unified card?

Couldn't agree more. Also, don't break the card because to transfer the balance, you have to go to Britomart and buy a new one too.

The integrated system was supposed to allow on-line top-ups. Don't know if there was to be a fee.

spacedog

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#675945 23-Aug-2012 14:13

Linuxluver:
spacedog: Reading this thread and staring at another year of increasing rates bills from Auckland on my desk and seeing that ARTA has to pay Thales $627k per month for the stalled development, has me spitting nails.

Seriously, Auckland is the most fubar city I have lived in for wasteful spending and lack of accountability. There is simply no accountability in the council. I am utterly convinced the dysfunction with the ARTA and the council in Auckland is systemic.

Don't blame the Council. Make sure you know how the Council REALLY works and how CCOs REALLY work....before blaming the wrong people.
............

Thanks for taking the time to post that. I found that quite interesting.

After 10 years in Auckland I have seen nothing to indicate any sense of urgency or accountability to the voters regardless of their party affiliation. Hence my belief that the problem is systemic and the council, or the CCOs, are dysfunctional and stand little chance of improvement. It doesn't seem to matter who is elected, the attitude is to talk down to the voters and circle-the-wagons to protect themselves.

Anyways, regardless of party affiliation, this whole affair has been mismanaged and wasteful and someone, or some group, ought to be served up in the harsh light of day of the court of public opinion.

oxnsox

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#675990 23-Aug-2012 15:50

spacedog:Anyways, regardless of party affiliation, this whole affair has been mismanaged and wasteful and someone, or some group, ought to be served up in the harsh light of day of the court of public opinion.

...and if you look to the sky as you commute home tonight there's an outside chance you will see winged pigs

Kyanar

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#676064 23-Aug-2012 17:39

Linuxluver:
There should be a daily pass for $10 or $12 or $15 that lets you ride on anything, anywhere. Just wave the little cardboard ticket with the date printed on it at the driver.

You just described a Discovery Pass. By necessity, it's not electronic. It's just a ticket printed in whatever manner the carrier you're travelling on prints tickets, which says "Discovery Pass" and a date and costs $14. Upon showing one of these to a bus train or inner harbour ferry driver/conductor, they simply record the use of the pass (if they're an Infratil brand) or wave you onward and essentially ignore you (if they aren't). There's a huge amount of trust throughout the system as it'd be very easy to forge, but it works.

The monthly discovery pass is essentially a plastic embossed version that has a month printed on it and works for that whole month.

Kyanar

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#676065 23-Aug-2012 17:40

kyhwana2:
Kyanar:
kyhwana2: There's one universal system that works on buses and trains everywhere: Cash.

Monthly Discovery Pass too. They talk about integrated ticketing, but it already exists, it's just not convoluted and unnecessarily technological enough for them. I walk onto a bus, train, or ferry in Auckland, wave the card at the driver/conductor, and sit down. No tagging on, tagging off, fumbling for cash, or anything like that.

Does that work in Hamilton, Wellington or Christchurch? (Or anywhere else)

This is a topic about Auckland Transport, so I don't see how that's relevant.

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