Clean car package

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Clean car package

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#2729396 16-Jun-2021 00:26

mattwnz:

I think the model 3 is getting close to good value with the subsidy, although we do always seem to pay a lot more in NZ compared to the US. It is a nice luxury car. My issue though is build quality and reliability rather than price, as they are a tech company more than a car company. Once Toyota start building proper EVs, other Japanese brands will follow, and that should then offer the reliability we need from this tech. Hyundais look quite good, but very expensive. Some of the Europeon EVs also look nice, but very expensive and unknown reliability. But one problem at the moment is there is a chip shortage which is causing a lot of problems with supply.

What reliability issues do Tesla have that you seem to be focused on? As for price, at the moment, with the rebate the SR+ is US$3000 cheaper here than it is in the US.

ALL the other Japanese car companies are getting into EVs, Toyota is the only one dragging their feet. They're going to need to have something up their sleeve or they risk having a Kodak moment.

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#2729398 16-Jun-2021 01:14

Obraik:
ALL the other Japanese car companies are getting into EVs, Toyota is the only one dragging their feet. They're going to need to have something up their sleeve or they risk having a Kodak moment.

Toyota unveiled their "beyond zero" push into BEVs in April. First car out is a SUV the size of RAV4 built from the ground up on their EV platform.

You can read more about it here: 2022 Toyota bZ4X - they have said they will be launching 15 BEVs in the coming years and have teased an electric UTE based on the same electric platform.

They also have the RAV4 Prime PHEV that is probably coming to NZ in the beginning of 2022.

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mattwnz

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#2729400 16-Jun-2021 01:55

Obraik:
mattwnz:

I think the model 3 is getting close to good value with the subsidy, although we do always seem to pay a lot more in NZ compared to the US. It is a nice luxury car. My issue though is build quality and reliability rather than price, as they are a tech company more than a car company. Once Toyota start building proper EVs, other Japanese brands will follow, and that should then offer the reliability we need from this tech. Hyundais look quite good, but very expensive. Some of the Europeon EVs also look nice, but very expensive and unknown reliability. But one problem at the moment is there is a chip shortage which is causing a lot of problems with supply.

What reliability issues do Tesla have that you seem to be focused on? As for price, at the moment, with the rebate the SR+ is US$3000 cheaper here than it is in the US.

ALL the other Japanese car companies are getting into EVs, Toyota is the only one dragging their feet. They're going to need to have something up their sleeve or they risk having a Kodak moment.

Mazda is also far behind. No hybrids, and only one EV which has poor range.

Long term reliability. I have owned a French car, so I know all about reliability and electrician problems etc, and the very high cost for simple basic parts that are cheap with japanese brands.6 year ol car developed all sorts of problems, and just out of warranty, not made to last. Which is why I will now usually only buy Japanese. My RAV4 is 14 years old and made in Japan, and had no problems ever. I have seen people with Teslas not able to open the doors because something has failed, and their technical support has to come out to fix it. Not sure if it was software. but also body panel gaps is another issue, which isn't an issue you get with Mazdas or Toyotas. The more tech there is, the more to go wrong. But they will improve over time.

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#2729423 16-Jun-2021 08:54

mattwnz:

I think the model 3 is getting close to good value with the subsidy, although we do always seem to pay a lot more in NZ compared to the US. It is a nice luxury car. My issue though is build quality and reliability rather than price, as they are a tech company more than a car company. Once Toyota start building proper EVs, other Japanese brands will follow, and that should then offer the reliability we need from this tech. Hyundais look quite good, but very expensive. Some of the Europeon EVs also look nice, but very expensive and unknown reliability. But one problem at the moment is there is a chip shortage which is causing a lot of problems with supply.

Yep. When the price of a car is near to an ICE, people will buy. Up to 8k isn't a game changer. And if supplies are constrained due to chips, the scheme offers even less value. It will probably just amount to an enhanced drip feed over the growth we have now, hardly a climate change boom

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#2729438 16-Jun-2021 09:09

jarledb:

They also have the RAV4 Prime PHEV that is probably coming to NZ in the beginning of 2022.

I asked Miles Toyota about the RAV4 Prime earlier this year and they said that Toyota NZ didn't have any plans on bringing the vehicle to NZ. Has there been change to this I missed?

Obraik

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#2729453 16-Jun-2021 09:39

mattwnz:

Mazda is also far behind. No hybrids, and only one EV which has poor range.

Long term reliability. I have owned a French car, so I know all about reliability and electrician problems etc, and the very high cost for simple basic parts that are cheap with japanese brands.6 year ol car developed all sorts of problems, and just out of warranty, not made to last. Which is why I will now usually only buy Japanese. My RAV4 is 14 years old and made in Japan, and had no problems ever. I have seen people with Teslas not able to open the doors because something has failed, and their technical support has to come out to fix it. Not sure if it was software. but also body panel gaps is another issue, which isn't an issue you get with Mazdas or Toyotas. The more tech there is, the more to go wrong. But they will improve over time.

Panel gaps are not a reliability issue. The door handles were an issue on early Model S but they redesigned the mechanism and replaced them in cars with issues. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a car maker that hasn't had to do this. Even Toyota had a lawsuit from 2009 that resulted in a large payout in the US due to sticky accelerators and ended up recalling 11 million cars. I don't think you can tar all non-Japanese vehicles based on your experience with one car.

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Obraik

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#2729456 16-Jun-2021 09:43

Decal:

I asked Miles Toyota about the RAV4 Prime earlier this year and they said that Toyota NZ didn't have any plans on bringing the vehicle to NZ. Has there been change to this I missed?

Toyota seems to have limited capacity for it and is directing most of its deliveries to the US.

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Scott3

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#2729492 16-Jun-2021 10:28

Obraik:

Decal:

I asked Miles Toyota about the RAV4 Prime earlier this year and they said that Toyota NZ didn't have any plans on bringing the vehicle to NZ. Has there been change to this I missed?

Toyota seems to have limited capacity for it and is directing most of its deliveries to the US.

This (and Europe to a lesser extent).

With regards to the USA, There are nine states that have adopted California's ZEV mandate (Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Oregon, Rhode Island and Vermont). Basically if an automaker wants to sell a large volume of petrol / diesel cars in those states they must sell a certain number of BEV / PHEV / HEV vehicles, or buy credits from other automakers that sell more than they are requred to (like tesla).

Obviously paying your competitors for credits is not very attractive, so where global supply is limited it makes sense for automakers to send the cars to these area's.

Even in the USA the rav4 primes are quite hard to come by.

Apparently the Rav4 prime has only just started to appear in non ZEV states.

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/toyota-rav4-primes-begin-appear-non-zev-state-dealers

In terms of Europe there is a harsh emissions cap (95g co2 / km). - For comparison most double cab utes come in just over 200g co2 / km. - Automakers who miss need to either pay steep fines or buy credits from others. Again strong incentive to send low emission vehicles to such markets. (NZ is getting such a scheme cira 2023, but the limit is a lot higher than Europe is today, and the fine's are fairly small)

As a third factor, countries with Subsidise / rebates / tax breaks on plug in vehicles make the vehicles a lot easier to sell, meaning new EV's spend less time on lots etc. (hopefully the recent announcement will make NZ a more attractive place to send EV stock).

Given all the above, I am surprised that NZ gets as much stock as we do, but frankly without Hyundai / Kia the offerings would be quite sparse...

frankv

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#2729495 16-Jun-2021 10:29

tdgeek:

Yep. When the price of a car is near to an ICE, people will buy. Up to 8k isn't a game changer.

8.6k off 80k (10%) probably isn't much of a game changer, but 3.5K off 14K (25%) is a good chunk. And for cheaper EVs that will shift total cost of ownership to be well below that of an ICE. I wonder how many car imports are in the 0-20K price band vs the 60K-80K band?

And those extra Leafs are going to mean the charger network expands, in turn reducing one of the stumbling blocks to wider acceptance.

tdgeek

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#2729498 16-Jun-2021 10:36

frankv:

tdgeek:

Yep. When the price of a car is near to an ICE, people will buy. Up to 8k isn't a game changer.

8.6k off 80k (10%) probably isn't much of a game changer, but 3.5K off 14K (25%) is a good chunk. And for cheaper EVs that will shift total cost of ownership to be well below that of an ICE. I wonder how many car imports are in the 0-20K price band vs the 60K-80K band?

And those extra Leafs are going to mean the charger network expands, in turn reducing one of the stumbling blocks to wider acceptance.

Are there huge supplies of 14k EV imports for NZ? Are there new cheaper EV's that are below the price of the ICE version of that car? Not aware of that. I thought all EV's are substantilally higher priced than their same model EV equivalent

Obraik

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#2729505 16-Jun-2021 10:40

tdgeek:

Are there huge supplies of 14k EV imports for NZ? Are there new cheaper EV's that are below the price of the ICE version of that car? Not aware of that. I thought all EV's are substantilally higher priced than their same model EV equivalent

There is currently 102 listed on TradeMe. Not all of those will be fresh imports so they won't qualify but a quick scroll shows many that are (going by lack of number plates in photos).

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Handsomedan

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#2729568 16-Jun-2021 11:36

My range anxiety hold me back from a pure EV.

I don't drive long distances often, but I do them often enough...if that makes sense.

Case in point - last weekend, I drove approx 400kms. 250km of that was in one trip.

If I had a hybrid, I'd feel OK with that. Pure EV? I'd be anxious...unless I knew I could do at least 300km on one charge.

"Why not charge while you're stopped in the other city?" I hear you ask. Because there was no charger anywhere near where I was (at a sports ground, with the nearest charger approx 2km away).

Also - I don't have a charging unit at home. If it was a standard plug, I'd have to find a way of routing the cable from car to driveway without danger or security issues.

My petrol car doesn't give me any of this anxiety...but I am willing to be persuaded (assuming a decent EV can be had for $8-12k).

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Obraik

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#2729571 16-Jun-2021 11:50

Handsomedan:

My range anxiety hold me back from a pure EV.

I don't drive long distances often, but I do them often enough...if that makes sense.

Case in point - last weekend, I drove approx 400kms. 250km of that was in one trip.

If I had a hybrid, I'd feel OK with that. Pure EV? I'd be anxious...unless I knew I could do at least 300km on one charge.

"Why not charge while you're stopped in the other city?" I hear you ask. Because there was no charger anywhere near where I was (at a sports ground, with the nearest charger approx 2km away).

Also - I don't have a charging unit at home. If it was a standard plug, I'd have to find a way of routing the cable from car to driveway without danger or security issues.

My petrol car doesn't give me any of this anxiety...but I am willing to be persuaded (assuming a decent EV can be had for $8-12k).

With a budget of $8-12k you're not going to get an EV capable of that non-stop range, you'd be looking at a range of 90-150km of range. If you're the sort of driver that has lots of stops along a journey or doesn't mind stopping for 15-20mins at a time then one of those EVs is fine.

A SR+ Model 3 could do the whole return trip with just one 15 min stop at a charger, but you're looking at $61k for that.

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Senecio

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#2729574 16-Jun-2021 11:56

frankv:

8.6k off 80k (10%) probably isn't much of a game changer, but 3.5K off 14K (25%) is a good chunk. And for cheaper EVs that will shift total cost of ownership to be well below that of an ICE. I wonder how many car imports are in the 0-20K price band vs the 60K-80K band?

The reality is, that in many cases the total cost of ownership is already at a par or better than an equivalent ICE (over a serviceable lifetime of a BEV). Its just that we're not accustomed to paying for our fuel up front at the same as purchasing the car which you are essentially doing with a BEV. $8.6K shifts that further in favour of BEVs.

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#2729591 16-Jun-2021 12:00

mattwnz:

Mazda is also far behind. No hybrids, and only one EV which has poor range.

The Axela (JDM 3) comes as a Hybrid, or did with he BM/BN. It uses the Prius hybrid system.

My guess is the Japanese will use Denso or someone like that to build a shared electric platform.

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