EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#2943542 18-Jul-2022 18:26

everettpsycho:There is other options to charge, we got evnex boxes installed that can operate at 7kw but our leafs can't handle that much power in. You can also get a 15 amp caravan socket installed that would increase your charge rate and won't cost as much as a dedicated evse.

Yeah, a caravan plug and cable can be useful, as it’s essentially twice as quick as the standard 8A you’ll get from a 3-pin plug. (We get enough range on our Leaf for probably 80% of the time with charging for only one hour a day!) It also can be useful when travelling (eg, the rental units we’re currently staying at have an EV charging park that uses a caravan plug.)

However, what gets mentioned quite a bit on the NZ Tesla FB groups as (what I understand to be) a more cost-effective alternative is getting a 15A power point installed in replacement of a standard one; I’d be interested to know the exact requirements for that, but it’s certainly intimated this can be done without new wiring, providing the existing is up to scratch. Can others in the know comment on what is required?

https://www.bunnings.co.nz/deta-15amp-white-single-powerpoint_p0310616?

everettpsycho: The only thing I'd be worried about is with bigger batteries and slower charging it'll take a few days planning if you want to go on a longer trip to fully charge it using cheap power.

That said, most people won’t be doing a significant number of kms every single day, so it’s quite feasible in most situations to keep the battery at a decent charge level through regular if not daily charging. (I get that for most cars this means keeping them below 80%, but for cars using LFP batteries (some MYs and M3s; BYDs) it’s ok charging to and leaving at 100%.) Contact has its three hours of free charging; others have decent off-peak periods (eg, EK is 11-6, within which one hour will be free).

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#2943545 18-Jul-2022 18:44

everettpsycho:
sen8or:

So if I understand this correctly, a 60kw battery car (like the Atto 3) at home on a 10a plug

10a = about 2.5wk/hr charging (?)

60/2.5 = 24 - so 24 hours to charge from flat on standard 3 pin plug

Assuming the car was plugged in at night, utilising offpeak rates), that buys you about 8 hours charge per night at cheap rate.

So long as you plugged the car in 2-3 times a week overnight, this would cover the charging for normal use (200-250kms per week)?

Assuming this is correct understanding, the 60kw of power @ 15c/kw is then about $9 in costs for that 400 odd KM of range, so $ 4-6 per week?

My wife's car is looking uneconomical to repair so just looking at either splurging on a full EV or not.

Thanks

Sen

As long as you can get more in the car than you need the next day you'll be ok. In our leaf I'm doing about 450km a week for under $10, our petrol car was costing $120 for that mileage last time we filled it up.

There is other options to charge, we got evnex boxes installed that can operate at 7kw but our leafs can't handle that much power in. You can also get a 15 amp caravan socket installed that would increase your charge rate and won't cost as much as a dedicated evse. The only thing I'd be worried about is with bigger batteries and slower charging it'll take a few days planning if you want to go on a longer trip to fully charge it using cheap power.

We arrived home with our new Polestar2 SRSM on Saturday evening to discover that the plug on our 7kW Juicepoint EV charger was a type 1 (fine for our Jap import Leaf) and wrong for the type 2 AC socket on the Polestar. We have an adapter ordered which will arrive tomorrow so problem solved but in the meantime we used the 8 amp (3 pin) charge cord that came with the car.

So, starting from <10% charge the Polestar informed us that charging to 90% would take over 24 hours (80% of 64kWh = 51.2 kWh. 8 amps x 230V = 1.84kW. Therefore 51.2/1.84 = 27.8 hours.)

We're with Ecotricity so off-peak applies all weekend so even with a short Sunday drive we got to 90% before peak rates cut in at 7:00am today. Hopefully next weekend will see the sun shining to allow a PV sourced fill.

I've also crunched the numbers involved in working out our energy cost per km based on our electricity supplier:

Peak rate applies for 7:00am - 11:00am and 5:00pm - 9:00pm weekdays. This is NZ$0.32/kWh and close to public fast charge rate of 25c/kWh + 25c/minute (but not hyper rapid rate).
Off-peak rates apply at all other times including all weekend and is NZ$0.21/kWh
Buy back tariff is NZ$0.105/kWh

Based on the Polestar2's stated consumption rate of 19kWh/100km (31kWh/100miles) this calculates out at 6c/km at peak/fast charger rates, 4c/km at off peak rate charge or 2c/km if charged from our PV based on lost opportunity on export. Hyper rapid rate must work out at about 10-12c/km but can't be bothered doing the extra calcs right now.

As a comparison a Volvo XC60 (non-hybrid) which the Polestar2 is close to in size and performance (?) costs around 23c/km to fuel based on their stated 7.8L/100km on $3.00/L petrol. Noting of course that Polestar NZ have a scheduled for a service in 2 years/30,000km so maintenance costs will be miniscule compared to an ICE vehicle.

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#2943547 18-Jul-2022 18:55

HarmLessSolutions:

Chargenet's hyper rapid chargers are probably a better comparison to Tesla's superchargers. The rate on Chargenet's 300kW chargers is 60c/kWh + 35c/minute and based on the info they have on their website for the Bombay facility the 50kW units there are the same price. Normally 50kW stand alone units are 25c/kWh + 25c/minute though some differ.

It's "$0.60 / kWh (minimum $0.35 / minute)"

Emphasis mine.

So if you are charging above 35kW (as most of the modern Pure EV's will for all but the very end of their charge cycle), you can ignore the 35c/min bit.

It is only really vehicles like outlander PHEV's, and low bar Nissan leaf's that, and those who want to charge well above 80% state of charge that will get impacted by that 35c minimum.

For most EV's it works out to comparable cost to charging at a 50kW charger at the normal 25c/kWh + 25c/Min rate.

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#2943551 18-Jul-2022 19:11

Scott3:

HarmLessSolutions:

Chargenet's hyper rapid chargers are probably a better comparison to Tesla's superchargers. The rate on Chargenet's 300kW chargers is 60c/kWh + 35c/minute and based on the info they have on their website for the Bombay facility the 50kW units there are the same price. Normally 50kW stand alone units are 25c/kWh + 25c/minute though some differ.

It's "$0.60 / kWh (minimum $0.35 / minute)"

Emphasis mine.

So if you are charging above 35kW (as most of the modern Pure EV's will for all but the very end of their charge cycle), you can ignore the 35c/min bit.

It is only really vehicles like outlander PHEV's, and low bar Nissan leaf's that, and those who want to charge well above 80% state of charge that will get impacted by that 35c minimum.

For most EV's it works out to comparable cost to charging at a 50kW charger at the normal 25c/kWh + 25c/Min rate.

We charged at Chargenet's Bombay facility on our way home from Auckland on Saturday. Using a 300kW charger we were billed:

28.31kWh, 25m 18s, 0s (Idle fee) 50% to 89% battery gain = $17.13 Total charge,

28.31 kWh x 60c = $16.99 so it appears that we were charged virtually nothing for the time component. Incidentally the charge was initially over 100 kW and dropped to about 65kW as we neared 90% charge (as indicated on our dash display).

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#2943582 19-Jul-2022 07:38

structural battery means bye bye repairability

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/07/14/tesla-4680-battery-pack-charging-teardown-report-video/

sen8or

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#2943587 19-Jul-2022 08:20

jonathan18:

Yeah, a caravan plug and cable can be useful, as it’s essentially twice as quick as the standard 8A you’ll get from a 3-pin plug. (We get enough range on our Leaf for probably 80% of the time with charging for only one hour a day!) It also can be useful when travelling (eg, the rental units we’re currently staying at have an EV charging park that uses a caravan plug.)

Most moderj standard residential houses should have 2.5mm cable installed to power sockets, this will be sufficient for a 15a socket. They look like a 10a, only larger / longer earth pin (not a sparky but did work with them for 8 years). Its normally only ovens and hot water that require anything over 2.5 run (4, 6 or maybe 10mm depending on length).

Oh, and you'll just need to check the breaker that is on the circuit, likely to be a 16a, might need to swap this out with 20 or 32a and make sure the circuit doesn't overload the RCD if one is installed. Either way, installing a 15a socket, new breaker shouldn't be more than an hours work for a spark.

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#2943591 19-Jul-2022 08:29

I started an EVSE thread specifically for home charging discussions.

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Batman

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#2943763 19-Jul-2022 11:28

I just wondered to myself.

With all the talk of these new EVs.

There are only 3 things I care about.

Range, efficiency, battery degradation...

The degradation is a bit of a lottery isn't it?

Are there any websites that log degradation of make and models?

HarmLessSolutions

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#2943768 19-Jul-2022 11:40

Batman: I just wondered to myself.

With all the talk of these new EVs.

There are only 3 things I care about.

Range, efficiency, battery degradation...

The degradation is a bit of a lottery isn't it?

Are there any websites that log degradation of make and models?

Saw this diagram posted somewhere lately. The best representation of comparisons between the strenghts/weaknesses of the various battery chemistries currently on offer

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mkissin

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#2943774 19-Jul-2022 12:03

Except for the Nissan Leaf, and PHEVs (which absolutely hammer their batteries) battery degradation is basically negligible.

The only way to tell though is fleet data, which just isn't collected a lot because it's crowd-sourced. Flip the Fleet has a bunch of data, and is NZ-centric.

There's a small amount of Tesla data around as well if you google, as they've been available widely enough and for long enough, but you're looking at 90% SOH remaining after 240,000km driven. So, yeah, it's fine.

https://flipthefleet.org/

Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data - Electrek

Scott3

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#2943806 19-Jul-2022 13:29

On 15A AS/NZS 3112 sockets for EV charging. Please don't.

Despite being rated for 15 amps continuous, experience from the early days of NZ EV's shows that they do poorly in this duty. There are a few photos of scorched sockets around.

A 15A plug is not listed as a acceptable plug IC-CPD in the work-safe guidelines (page 17/18 here: https://www.worksafe.govt.nz/laws-and-regulations/regulations/electrical-regulations/regulatory-guidance-notes/electric-vehicle-charging-safety-guidelines/)

Due to issues with the 15A socket, the 16A blue caravan plug / socket quickly became the go to for this current range. It is fairly cheap, and a much more sturdy plug that seems to do very well. And such sockets can be found in any campground in the country, which was a big deal before we had the likes of the charge.net network.

Realistically the common options for home charging are:

- 10A domestic socket

- 16A Caravan socket.

- Proper mounted evse.

Batman: I just wondered to myself.

With all the talk of these new EVs.

There are only 3 things I care about.

Range, efficiency, battery degradation...

The degradation is a bit of a lottery isn't it?

Are there any websites that log degradation of make and models?

Pritty easy for the leaf:

https://flipthefleet.org/resources/benchmark-your-leaf-before-buying/

Pretty hard for other EV's. Nissan was real brave putting a visual indicator of battery health right in front of the drivers face on the dashboard. Other EV brands make it a lot harder to get that info.

And as with basically any recently released product, it is near impossible to get longer term data. So really it is a bit of a lottery.

For EV battery life, you can consider:
- Battery chemistry. LFP batteries are considered the best around for degradation (at the expense of weight at very low temperature charging speed).
- Battery cooling. Passive cooling < Active air cooling < liquid / refrigerant cooling. In short, High temperature is damaging for packs, having the ability to cool the pack reduces the exposure to high tempratures.
- What sort of degradation warranty the brand offers.
- Brand reputation / model reputation.

There are also significant user factors:

- How charged the pack is kept. Li batteries degrade faster when kept at near 100%. One would expect a lot longer life if they just charge the car to 70 or 80% (except for a handful of times a year when they actually need more range). Having the ability to set a charge limit in the car makes this easier. (I think this doesn't significantly apply to LFP packs)

- How much the pack is fast charged. Fast DC charging means add heat to the battery pack, so is in general more damaging than slow AC charging.

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#2943818 19-Jul-2022 14:13

Scott3:

- How much the pack is fast charged. Fast DC charging means add heat to the battery pack, so is in general more damaging than slow AC charging.

Does this mean that I can expect faster battery degradation if I'm not able to charge at home, and therefore reliant on public chargers?

If so then this would be a significant factor to consider before buying an electric vehicle.

mkissin

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#2943819 19-Jul-2022 14:18

alasta:

Scott3:

- How much the pack is fast charged. Fast DC charging means add heat to the battery pack, so is in general more damaging than slow AC charging.

Does this mean that I can expect faster battery degradation if I'm not able to charge at home, and therefore reliant on public chargers?

If so then this would be a significant factor to consider before buying an electric vehicle.

Sort of. Heat damages the batteries. DC fast charging will add heat. This is mainly a concern for vehicles that have poor or no cooling in the pack like the leaf.

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#2943821 19-Jul-2022 14:20

alasta:

Scott3:

- How much the pack is fast charged. Fast DC charging means add heat to the battery pack, so is in general more damaging than slow AC charging.

Does this mean that I can expect faster battery degradation if I'm not able to charge at home, and therefore reliant on public chargers?

If so then this would be a significant factor to consider before buying an electric vehicle.

The US guy who drives his Tesla 300,000 miles charges exclusively on Superchargers, and his has only lost about 16% capacity after all that time. So, yes, kind of, but actually it is less of a concern with an EV that has proper battery cooling.

By comparison, the battery in my Leaf - with no cooling - is rooted at 150,000km. [Come on EVs Enhanced, hurry up!]

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#2943859 19-Jul-2022 16:03

alasta:

Scott3:

- How much the pack is fast charged. Fast DC charging means add heat to the battery pack, so is in general more damaging than slow AC charging.

Does this mean that I can expect faster battery degradation if I'm not able to charge at home, and therefore reliant on public chargers?

If so then this would be a significant factor to consider before buying an electric vehicle.

In short, in general, with other conditions like for like, yes.

As mentioned by others, Fast DC charging adds heat via the internal resistance of the battery. That heat can accelerate degradation.

My leaf has over 1000 fast charge cycles, It think it was a fair bet it was exclusively fast charged in japan before being imported to NZ at 65,000km. And falls in the bottom 5 percentile for battery health of 2014 cars.

Pack cooling would help a lot, but no cooling system is perfect, and there will be temperature gradients between the center of the cells and the heat exchange surface.

In the case of the Nissan leaf, it is the consecutive fast charges that are the issue big issue. Two (resonantly large) fast charges in a day is about the limit for my car without the battery getting really hot. Obviously this is not really an issue for somebody fast charging their car for the week while they do their supermarket shop.

Cars can manage the heat issues from multiple fast charges in different way's. For example the 24 & 30 kWh leaf's just allow the battery to get real hot, allowing faster degradation. The 40kWh leaf slows the fast charge when the battery gets warm, meaning less heat going into the battery, which is better for degradation, but frustrating for users. Was coined "Rapidgate".

Should also note, that even with a cooling system, sometimes it can't keep up. A euro based EV youtuber did a 1000km challenge with a Ioniq 5, and it saw charge rates as low as 68kW due to heat (normally this car would charge over double that).

Also, LFP batteries have the potential of lasting so long how they are charged is moot.

As a wider thought, I currently would not recommend a pure EV for somebody with access to neither home or workplace charging for other reasons:

- Cost. At say 44kW, the chargnet 50kW chargers 25c/kWh + 25c/min works out to 59c/kWh with time component considered. Hyperchargers are 60c/kWh (min 35c/min). I think Tesla supercharger price varies, but is in a similar ballpark.

60c/kWh is more than triple what I pay for power at home. At say 180Wh/km, works out to 10.8c/km. Not much savings over something like Prius (12c fuel cost/km at 4L/100km and $3/L).

Little chance of clawing back the higher capital cost of the EV.

- Convenience. Being able to charge up at home, means that most EV owners only need to public charge fairly rarely. Meaning many consider it a convenience win vs a petrol car. Without this ability owning an EV is a convenience loss.

Should note that there are some free lines company owned fast chargers in Auckland and the Waikato. Obviously a sweet deal, but note. 1. they are already often have a queue, as people who have the means to charge at home opt to instead use the chargers as they are free. They are not likely to be free long term. Vector describes theirs as "Free for now", and they undercut commercial providers.

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