Clean Car Standard

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#2645230 1-Feb-2021 13:28

vexxxboy:

still not under $10,000 that the large majority of low to middle income families can only afford

That's quite true. Country's worst journo D Garner says this "But if we can't get a vaccine into New Zealand, how on earth can we get 4 million electric cars here in such a short time? Crazy, I think we import 160,000 cars p.a and not all of these are new

Yes your right, but new EV's or imports can flow to the 10k people later on and its well worth while for them to go to 15k or a bit more purely for fuel savings

Obraik

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#2645231 1-Feb-2021 13:31

vexxxboy:

still not under $10,000 that the large majority of low to middle income families can only afford

No new vehicle can be had for under $10k, However, there are second hand Leaf available for under $10k which are good for simple commuter vehicles. You certainly wouldn't want to be using these examples for anything beyond your daily work/school/shopping run but for a lot of people that is all they need a car for. Eventually these options will increase and EVs with the technology that prevents such rapid battery degradation and thus longer range available, will start to fall into these price ranges too.

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mdooher

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#2645236 1-Feb-2021 13:40

Obraik:

mdooher:

Providing subsidies pisses off people that have to pay for those subsidies. Eg at the moment letting people with electric cars get away without paying road user tax.

In the case of what has been proposed here, the subsidy would be fed by those who still choose to buy high emitting vehicles. Seems fair that those who choose to cause damage should help fund those that want to do the right thing.

It also seems fair that I don't pay for RUC while ICE vehicles currently don't pay anything substantial for the damage they're doing to the environment 😉

Those that drive petrol vehicles pay a per litre charge for carbon emissions now. If someone choses to run a V8 and pay set price to do that, why should they pay more to someone who was going to do the "right" thing anyway?

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#2645237 1-Feb-2021 13:40

Obraik:

It also seems fair that I don't pay for RUC while ICE vehicles currently don't pay anything substantial for the damage they're doing to the environment 😉

Look, that's getting petty. EV's and their battery pack emit a LOT of CO2. Yes you can provide 46 links as to why they emit less, but they still emit a lot. Its not like an EV emits 10% of what an ICE does over the course of its life.

As for RUC its fine as a teaser, but its not fair if some road users dont pay road users tax. Or is a level playing field not ideal?

Look, I like your posts, but it does get tiring reading posts seemingly written by an EV magazine editor, or Elon Musks nephew. I like EV's but I'm not oblivious to the costs of them, disadvantages of them and what most Kiwis can afford. Same with Solar PV that I think is awesome, same problem for most people as EV's are right now. But if they will be the same price as the ICE on 3 years as you stated, then there is probably nothing to discuss. 3 years and save $20,000 +, yes, I will wait, thanks for the tip. By then we will have more models to choose from, win-win

Obraik

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#2645239 1-Feb-2021 13:45

mdooher:

Those that drive petrol vehicles pay a per litre charge for carbon emissions now. If someone choses to run a V8 and pay set price to do that, why should they pay more to someone who was going to do the "right" thing anyway?

Many would argue that the price per litre isn't substantial enough. You should pay more to someone to do the right thing as that offsets those that are doing the "wrong" thing.

I'm not against EVs paying RUC and I believe that it is inevitable. However, I don't think that should happen until other mechanisms are put in place that see ICE vehicles pay their way for the environment and health costs they create. AKA, the feebate scheme that's being talked about again.

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tdgeek

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#2645240 1-Feb-2021 13:53

Obraik:

Many would argue that the price per litre isn't substantial enough. You should pay more to someone to do the right thing as that offsets those that are doing the "wrong" thing.

I'm not against EVs paying RUC and I believe that it is inevitable. However, I don't think that should happen until other mechanisms are put in place that see ICE vehicles pay their way for the environment and health costs they create. AKA, the feebate scheme that's being talked about again.

Inevitable? You make it sound unfair. EV should be paying RUC now. Electricity use doesnt fix roads. Then if you wish tax all vehicles for fuel pollution, the EV will avoid that, Hybrids pay less. Keep road conditions and safety away from this topic.

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#2645242 1-Feb-2021 13:55

Obraik:

Many would argue that the price per litre isn't substantial enough. You should pay more to someone to do the right thing as that offsets those that are doing the "wrong" thing.

I'm not against EVs paying RUC and I believe that it is inevitable. However, I don't think that should happen until other mechanisms are put in place that see ICE vehicles pay their way for the environment and health costs they create. AKA, the feebate scheme that's being talked about again.

Wholesale reorganisation of user pays around RUC would also have to involve repricing road transport for commercial operators. It can't be user pays until it's suddenly not.

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Obraik

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#2645244 1-Feb-2021 14:00

tdgeek:

You make it sound unfair. EV should be paying RUC now. Electricity use doesnt fix roads. Then if you wish tax all vehicles for fuel pollution, the EV will avoid that, Hybrids pay less. Keep road conditions and safety away from this topic.

I never said it was unfair at all, that's your own interpretation. However, as I said, EVs should continue to be RUC free as some sort of incentive until more substantial incentives are introduced and/or ICE vehicles start properly paying their way for their emissions and health costs.

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mdooher

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#2645271 1-Feb-2021 14:07

Obraik:

[

I never said it was unfair at all, that's your own interpretation. However, as I said, EVs should continue to be RUC free as some sort of incentive until more substantial incentives are introduced and/or ICE vehicles start properly paying their way for their emissions and health costs.

they already do, that is what the emissions trading scheme does

Matthew

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#2645272 1-Feb-2021 14:07

Obraik:

tdgeek:

You make it sound unfair. EV should be paying RUC now. Electricity use doesnt fix roads. Then if you wish tax all vehicles for fuel pollution, the EV will avoid that, Hybrids pay less. Keep road conditions and safety away from this topic.

I never said it was unfair at all, that's your own interpretation. However, as I said, EVs should continue to be RUC free as some sort of incentive until more substantial incentives are introduced and/or ICE vehicles start properly paying their way for their emissions and health costs.

When you say inevitable, you seem to expect free RUC for a good while, so you dont seem to support safe roads. yes, as I said, a teaser is fine but you want freebies. Do EV's need to be hand held and for how long? If you are creating an artificial saving then its both unfair and its not reality. I.e. can an EV not live in an equal playing field? Yes I know you will say its an incentive, but how long for? Till we have 4 million EVs?

This is not a health cost topic. If you want health taxed, thats fine, RUC is not a health tax its a fix the road tax

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#2645274 1-Feb-2021 14:12

mdooher:

In that case why does the government need to legislate? Once the cars are cheaper and better people will buy them. As I said in a previous post, the same thing happened with energy efficient lightbulbs.

Just leave people alone, legislation just pisses people off and makes them dig their toes in.

The population of Aotearoa is subsidised in many areas already including you and me.

MikeB4

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#2645275 1-Feb-2021 14:13

The final goal is not to have bad vehicles pay more but to rid the planet of exhaust emission as soon as we can.

tdgeek

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#2645276 1-Feb-2021 14:14

This will go round in circles for the next 4 months.. :-)

EV's are great

Incentivise them when they are plentiful in models and volume.

They need to be able to exist on a level playing field

If you want to tax ICE vehicles for health reasons, that will be added to every physical product in every shop or online store, so be careful who you want to tax as it will be everyone not just the evil ICE drivers

(I'd hate to be a V8 ICE driver who is a baby boomer :-) )

Obraik

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#2645277 1-Feb-2021 14:18

mdooher:

they already do, that is what the emissions trading scheme does

Which as I said, isn't substantial enough. If it were our emissions as a country would be reducing, not growing.

tdgeek:

When you say inevitable, you seem to expect free RUC for a good while, so you dont seem to support safe roads. yes, as I said, a teaser is fine but you want freebies. Do EV's need to be hand held and for how long? If you are creating an artificial saving then its both unfair and its not reality. I.e. can an EV not live in an equal playing field? Yes I know you will say its an incentive, but how long for? Till we have 4 million EVs?

This is not a health cost topic. If you want health taxed, thats fine, RUC is not a health tax its a fix the road tax

As per usual, you're trying to start an argument by not reading properly and trying to over analyse a single word.

The topic of this thread is about the Clean Car Standard, AKA ICE Vehicles paying their way for the damage they cause to the environment and peoples health. If you read what I wrote, you'll see that what I said was that it is fair that EVs don't pay for RUC while ICE vehicles don't pay for that damage they're causing. When the Clean Car Standard is put into pace it is inevitable that EVs will lose their RUC exemption.

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mdooher

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#2645285 1-Feb-2021 14:22

MikeB4:

mdooher:

In that case why does the government need to legislate? Once the cars are cheaper and better people will buy them. As I said in a previous post, the same thing happened with energy efficient lightbulbs.

Just leave people alone, legislation just pisses people off and makes them dig their toes in.

The population of Aotearoa is subsidised in many areas already including you and me.

I am in the group of people that ends up with a net tax payment. I could do without subsidising even more people. If you want an electric car cool, go and get one. If you can't get one without a subsidy from me then you shouldn't have one.

We live in a society where we are taxed to help those less fortunate.. good. But no one "needs" and electric car.

Matthew

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