the future is here in Australia: EV vs ICE

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › the future is here in Australia: EV vs ICE

Batman

Mad Scientist
30012 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6217

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#302558 2-Dec-2022 07:04

diesel and EV travel 1400km in AU (2022)

diesel cost $5 more, and waited around for the EV to charge

EV even had one free charge, and had to send the diesel to look for a correct detour when one of the roads were out of order

is this the same in NZ?

put me off getting a long range EV, might stick with Leaf for town and ICE for long distance

any comments?

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5

5977 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#3004407 2-Dec-2022 07:21

TBH I'm happy saving cash with a boring EV during the week to save money for something more interesting to tool around in on long drives or on weekends. I wouldn't want two boring cars to cover off long distance, where's the fun in that?

Although I will note the Australian charging network is sparser, and if you've got a family with little people, you're not going to be doing 'full tank of diesel' stints at a time anyway. So IDK, maybe once we get more chargers that can make use of 800v, then a lunch at Maccas and a bathroom pitstop will be able to give you an almost full battery by the time you get back.

billgates

4705 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 671

Trusted

#3004409 2-Dec-2022 07:23

Petrol & Diesel is a lot cheaper in Australia compared to NZ. Electricity prices in Australia are little higher compared to NZ. As soon as the fuel prices go up which they will continue to do so, the ICE savings will start to diminish too.

Do whatever you want to do man.

mudguard

2327 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1250

#3004419 2-Dec-2022 07:47

Batman:

Put me off getting a long range EV, might stick with Leaf for town and ICE for long distance

I've said before, my use case is niche, 30-40,000kms for work in a car. But if people are being honest with themselves, how often do people drive even 100km per day? If I had a normal desk job and could afford a new car it would be electric all the way.

Kind of reminds me of the old Falcadore Wagon debate. Kiwis bought them for the one big summer road trip per year rather than getting some more appropriately sized and just renting a car for the big trip.

GV27

5977 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#3004434 2-Dec-2022 08:19

mudguard:

I've said before, my use case is niche, 30-40,000kms for work in a car. But if people are being honest with themselves, how often do people drive even 100km per day? If I had a normal desk job and could afford a new car it would be electric all the way.

The old 'I need to tow my boat the entire length of the country and I only stop once in each island and this is my use case and any car I buy has to have this capability even if it costs me an arm and a leg on the 360 days that I don't actually do it' ruse.

We are rapidly approaching the point where a family roadside rest-stop will give you enough time to snag another 250km of charge once chargers are in enough places. By the time you've stretched your legs, had a leak, rounded up kids, restrapped them into car seats and have the dog reloaded, you'll be good to go.

Cars with the capability to do that exist and are available for sale now in showrooms, now it's just a question of things like EV chargers at roadside dunnies, cafes, rest stops and so on.

rb99

3505 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1830

Lifetime subscriber

#3004443 2-Dec-2022 08:35

Its also a question of being able to afford them.

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

rb99

tchart

2396 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 577

ID Verified

Trusted

#3004450 2-Dec-2022 08:57

rb99:

Its also a question of being able to afford them.

^^^ this, current prices are stupid money - its unobtainium for the majority of NZ.

The cheapest new EV in NZ is MG ZS EV for $48,990 ($40,365 after rebate).

Lets assume you could get finance for $40K - thats about $475 per fortnight (AA car loan) plus what ever electricity you use. AFAIK you

However if I get a nice secondhand ICE for $10K its $121 per fortnight. Difference being $354 which would more than cover two tanks of 91 a fortnight.

The total fornightly spend is "close" but I dont think many low income earners would be approved for a $40K car loan (at least not at 7-10%pa).

And while we can wait for the second hand market, do you think after 5-6 years a second hand EV would be $10K?

Geekzone

Want to support Geekzone and browse the site without the ads? Subscribe to Geekzone now (monthly, annual and lifetime options).

wellygary

8810 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 5287

#3004451 2-Dec-2022 08:57

billgates:

As soon as the fuel prices go up which they will continue to do so, the ICE savings will start to diminish too.

The problem for Australia at the moment is that its electricity prices are heavily linked to fuel prices,

its only 29% renewable, 51% id Coal and 20% is Gas,

Australian Gas and Coal are internationally traded so are linked to global oil/energy prices,

vexxxboy

4336 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2072

#3004453 2-Dec-2022 09:05

GV27:

We are rapidly approaching the point where a family roadside rest-stop will give you enough time to snag another 250km of charge once chargers are in enough places. By the time you've stretched your legs, had a leak, rounded up kids, restrapped them into car seats and have the dog reloaded, you'll be good to go.

Cars with the capability to do that exist and are available for sale now in showrooms, now it's just a question of things like EV chargers at roadside dunnies, cafes, rest stops and so on.

thats a good theory but how does that work when every other EV user has the same idea and you only have a few chargers available.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

shk292

2915 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2040

Lifetime subscriber

#3004455 2-Dec-2022 09:09

mudguard:

Kind of reminds me of the old Falcadore Wagon debate. Kiwis bought them for the one big summer road trip per year rather than getting some more appropriately sized and just renting a car for the big trip.

Although I agree that basing your car choice around a rare event is not good, the rental cost of big cars in the peak holiday season would quickly escalate if a significant number of people did this.

To me, it's not range that is delaying EV purchase - we nearly bought one recently but ended up with a petrol (non plug-in) hybrid. It's simply that the money numbers for new vehicles don't stack up unless you're doing huge kms regularly. By switching from an ICE MPV to a small hybrid, we've reduced petrol use for that vehicle by around 66% and saved around $18k compared to buying a comparable EV. At 10000km per year and 4l per 100km, it's going to take a long time to spend $18k on petrol

shk292

2915 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2040

Lifetime subscriber

#3004462 2-Dec-2022 09:12

tchart:

^^^ this, current prices are stupid money - its unobtainium for the majority of NZ.

The cheapest new EV in NZ is MG ZS EV for $48,990 ($40,365 after rebate).

Lets assume you could get finance for $40K - thats about $475 per fortnight (AA car loan) plus what ever electricity you use. AFAIK you

However if I get a nice secondhand ICE for $10K its $121 per fortnight. Difference being $354 which would more than cover two tanks of 91 a fortnight.

The total fornightly spend is "close" but I dont think many low income earners would be approved for a $40K car loan (at least not at 7-10%pa).

And while we can wait for the second hand market, do you think after 5-6 years a second hand EV would be $10K?

Agreed - and your numbers ignore depreciation. If you add in 10% per year for depreciation (which is far too low, but ignore that for now), you add another $150 per fortnight to the EV cost

It also assumes road duty remains at zero, which is unrealistic

GV27

5977 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#3004467 2-Dec-2022 09:25

shk292:

Agreed - and your numbers ignore depreciation. If you add in 10% per year for depreciation (which is far too low, but ignore that for now), you add another $150 per fortnight to the EV cost

It also assumes road duty remains at zero, which is unrealistic

Depreciation is a non-cash expense, if you're talking about being able to make payments on something, it isn't a relevant consideration.

Thankfully technology does not stand still or get more expensive with time. A $200 video card today is still leagues ahead of what $200 bought you ten years ago, even if it is on the low side of what you could spend.

Things get cheaper over time, there's still literally no B segment EVs yet and there will be a point where energy density and price per kwh for batteries means that you're basically at 1:1 with an equivalent new ICE car.

We're not all still riding horses, so given a long enough timeline, these aren't unreasonable assumptions to make.,

Lego

Shop now for Lego sets and other gifts (affiliate link).

Rikkitic

Awrrr
19062 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 16302

Lifetime subscriber

#3004468 2-Dec-2022 09:25

What were the early days of ICE like? How did owners of those new-fangled horseless carriages refuel on longer trips? Did they just carry extra fuel with them? Where did they even get that? It seems to me that a lot of the questions about EV today must be the same as those about fossil fuel then.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

GV27

5977 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4212

#3004469 2-Dec-2022 09:27

vexxxboy:

thats a good theory but how does that work when every other EV user has the same idea and you only have a few chargers available.

Probably because the number of chargers we have now won't be the same number of chargers we have forever?

Vector is exiting the Auckland market, Z, Octopus etc are entering and there are the established players like Charge Net already operating.

They aren't going to just sit at their current levels of investment and be on cruise control, there's going to be some real competition over the next few years.

rb99

3505 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1830

Lifetime subscriber

#3004470 2-Dec-2022 09:29

They are certainly expensive, and you save plenty, or spend less, with second hand ICE, plus less heading for the scrapheap.

Maybe instead of the big, dare I say, SUV, it should be small hybrid or battery and a small trailer.

But I guess what we really need is better public transport and more local shopping. No out of town shopping centres but local shops and even better, local jobs. Car sharing, not 50 people driving to work by themselves to the same place.

But I still fancy an Ioniq 6, except of course for the price.

I'll fix this up when I become master of the universe.

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

rb99

elpenguino

3576 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2938

#3004476 2-Dec-2022 09:39

GV27:

vexxxboy:

thats a good theory but how does that work when every other EV user has the same idea and you only have a few chargers available.

Probably because the number of chargers we have now won't be the same number of chargers we have forever?

Vector is exiting the Auckland market, Z, Octopus etc are entering and there are the established players like Charge Net already operating.

They aren't going to just sit at their current levels of investment and be on cruise control, there's going to be some real competition over the next few years.

I'm all in favour of electric everything but I still have doubts about the shortage of chargers that will occur in peak periods and holiday places.

We've all seen the queues at petrol stations in some beach or lakeside spot. How much more of a PITA will those be when every user needs 15 minutes instead of 4?

Installing extra chargers in places with normally low populations will not be good ROI - who will do it as a charity?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5