Formula1 2019

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#2268245 2-Jul-2019 09:02

niallm90:

tdgeek:

Not clear to me what you are saying. Max penalty or not?

Sorry, lol. Trying to clarify and I missed perhaps the most important point. No penalty. I think to give one would be to change the interpretation and implementation of the rules and I don't think that should be done without prior communication with all parties.

So, Charles was leading, Max came up level, so its ok for Max to push him off the track? If there was a wall there that's ok too? As I see it, from your link, they both have the right to the line, as they are level. They both have the right. That means no one has full rights. So, the inside car has to leave room. Max admitted there is a crest so you get understeer, so knowing that, he allowed his car to understeer, knowing full well it will push Charles off the track, so it was literally intentional.

I want less penalties and more racing, but if two cars are level, it seems both can choose to drive into the other?

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#2268275 2-Jul-2019 10:05

tdgeek:

So, Charles was leading, Max came up level, so its ok for Max to push him off the track? If there was a wall there that's ok too? As I see it, from your link, they both have the right to the line, as they are level. They both have the right. That means no one has full rights. So, the inside car has to leave room. Max admitted there is a crest so you get understeer, so knowing that, he allowed his car to understeer, knowing full well it will push Charles off the track, so it was literally intentional.

I want less penalties and more racing, but if two cars are level, it seems both can choose to drive into the other?

I think your missing or ignoring my point.

To respond to yours, while at first judgement and having not seeing any replays I thought Max was at no fault. I now feel there is more if a grey area. Max had full lock on for most of the corner and wasn't even looking at Charles. In the end yes he forced Charles off track. Assuming he didn't do it deliberately then I think a penalty would be harsh. If he had redressed the place and tried again I would have a lot more respect for him. If he had obviously turned into Charles then I would have expected a penalty. I believe in not penalising the grey and leaving the stewards to the obvious

If there was a wall there they both would have come together and potentially given Bottas the lead. I don't think I would have seen it any different.

I wouldn't be opposed to the FIA or Race Director making this explicitly forbidden for future GPs through I would hope they had the option of just swapping positions/ results and not just a 5s penalty that can drop them back several places in a close race.

GV27

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#2268277 2-Jul-2019 10:08

niallm90:

I wouldn't be opposed to the FIA or Race Director making this explicitly forbidden for future GPs through I would hope they had the option of just swapping positions/ results and not just a 5s penalty that can drop them back several places in a close race.

I can see logic in that - it treats the pass as if it was made off-track and forces a redress or else you get a penalty for ignoring the redress order.

tdgeek

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#2268280 2-Jul-2019 10:13

niallm90:

tdgeek:

So, Charles was leading, Max came up level, so its ok for Max to push him off the track? If there was a wall there that's ok too? As I see it, from your link, they both have the right to the line, as they are level. They both have the right. That means no one has full rights. So, the inside car has to leave room. Max admitted there is a crest so you get understeer, so knowing that, he allowed his car to understeer, knowing full well it will push Charles off the track, so it was literally intentional.

I want less penalties and more racing, but if two cars are level, it seems both can choose to drive into the other?

I think your missing or ignoring my point.

To respond to yours, while at first judgement and having not seeing any replays I thought Max was at no fault. I now feel there is more if a grey area. Max had full lock on for most of the corner and wasn't even looking at Charles. In the end yes he forced Charles off track. Assuming he didn't do it deliberately then I think a penalty would be harsh. If he had redressed the place and tried again I would have a lot more respect for him. If he had obviously turned into Charles then I would have expected a penalty. I believe in not penalising the grey and leaving the stewards to the obvious

If there was a wall there they both would have come together and potentially given Bottas the lead. I don't think I would have seen it any different.

I wouldn't be opposed to the FIA or Race Director making this explicitly forbidden for future GPs through I would hope they had the option of just swapping positions/ results and not just a 5s penalty that can drop them back several places in a close race.

How is it grey? Both cars were even, no one was in front. Who had right of way if they are both even? Max pushed him off as he admitted you get understeer there so he went there knowing full well he will get understeer. If Charles had turned in to maintain the line he has a right to, then what?

What you are saying is that if two cars are exactly even, a collision is ok

tdgeek

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#2268283 2-Jul-2019 10:17

niallm90:

I wouldn't be opposed to the FIA or Race Director making this explicitly forbidden for future GPs through I would hope they had the option of just swapping positions/ results and not just a 5s penalty that can drop them back several places in a close race.

No pushing off track

Follow the rules as to who has right of way. They both had right of way so they both have to give the other room, as no one is in front and has taken the lead and therefore taken the right of way

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#2268287 2-Jul-2019 10:26

There are so many more experienced racing drivers here than I realised! :-)

Taking any incident in isolation and applying the rules will only cause confusion. The stewards are vastly experienced and are infinitely better qualified to make the decision than _LITERALLY_ anyone else in the world, given their experience and access to more information than anyone else.

To be clear, I AM NOT calling anyone here an antivaxxer, but the discussions here seem to have eerie parallels where non expert observers seem to think their opinion is as valid or better than the actual experts.

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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#2268289 2-Jul-2019 10:36

Talkiet:

There are so many more experienced racing drivers here than I realised! :-)

Taking any incident in isolation and applying the rules will only cause confusion. The stewards are vastly experienced and are infinitely better qualified to make the decision than _LITERALLY_ anyone else in the world, given their experience and access to more information than anyone else.

To be clear, I AM NOT calling anyone here an antivaxxer, but the discussions here seem to have eerie parallels where non expert observers seem to think their opinion is as valid or better than the actual experts.

N

Yeah Neil, but when my kids were little they said I'm a Dad I know everything!

I see what your saying but I see variations amongst everyone else as well. Brundle says let them race, Di Resta says he doesnt know but Max did so well it won't be fair. After Canada, would the stewards go against what was a Max weekend and give him a penalty? In Canada they were criticised, and now in Austria the annecdotal commentary is that Max was at fault as he was not in front and he pushed the other off the track. Its inconsistent, and its hard not to see any bias form the stewards

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#2268293 2-Jul-2019 10:38

All I'm saying is if the rules were enforced equally, then we wouldn't have 2 weeks of Canada dispute and now 2 weeks of Austria dispute.

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#2268294 2-Jul-2019 10:41

It's a mess that one.

Leclerc arrived in that corner in a compromised position, in the lead coming up to the corner but well over to the side on the optimum racing line, leaving him exposed defensively.

Verstappen then get's the opportunity to dart up the inside, and going into the corner he's closed the gap and is just marginally ahead as they round the apex.

Leclerc has a faster line though and carries more speed around the corner, so they're side by side coming out.

This then really comes down to did Max have enough of a lead (half a tyre distance only) to claim the corner as his?

Leclerc didn't yield and as a consequence they touched and he was run off the road.

Of the two I would have thought it didn't favour Verstappen as well, for the same reasons as Vettel recently (although the two situations aren't directly comparable).
Verstappen doesn't try to hug the inside line of the corner, which would have given Leclerc enough track space.

It's this casual drifting wide to claim the racing line that I think opens you up for scrutiny, as you're not doing anything actively to prevent a collision.

It puts you in that shoddy driver territory, where your great overtaking lunges only actually work if the other driver gets out of your way.
That's not great driving, that's being an idiot bully and requiring those around you to take the evasive manoeuvre to create your gap.

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#2268299 2-Jul-2019 10:51

One thing that struck me was Max's words about the crest and understeer. It sounded like my excuse, the crest caused me to hit him. Well, that's a mistake??

The overriding factor is its easier to make it a racing incident than create another riot that will be in the press for a month. After all, Max drove well, he had heaps of support, its unfair.....

Signed

Cynical Me

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#2268337 2-Jul-2019 11:25

You have to say though without the incident Max would have overtaken eventually. But unfortunately as it happens he forced LC of the track without penalty.

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#2268347 2-Jul-2019 11:38

Batman: You have to say though without the incident Max would have overtaken eventually. But unfortunately as it happens he forced LC of the track without penalty.

Yes, he had more grip. No issue there. So that makes it ok to push him off the track, ? Into a wall? Thats crazy logic. So, as Mercedes is the best car out there they will pass so look out, rules dont apply, get ready for damage as I will pass anyway

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#2268354 2-Jul-2019 11:59

I still feel like your missing my main point @tdgeek and this is beginning to feel futile. @GV27 has made an effort to understand.

What I am saying is that assuming Max did everything he could to make the corner then it would be frustrating to see drivers get punished for that kind of thing. i.e. I hold the Vettel - Hamilton incident in Canada as Vettlel wasn't in control. I can fully see where you are coming from and I would have probably argued the same thing in 2014. Also as I have stated a number of times I don't want to see them start handing out penalties without a communicated change in approach.

@Talkiet

I tend to agree. I'm not really a fan when people try to claim the stewards have intentional bias and I agree that they have a lot more information. But I don't think that means people shouldn't have opinions that they have rational arguments for. You don't need to be a racing driver for that. Something that might help is more viability of their process. Like in rugby where you here the TMO making the decision and asking for the footage to be rolled back and forth calling out what his is looking for. If we had a post race video with the processes it might help people understand.

Edit: Fixed sentance

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#2268356 2-Jul-2019 12:09

niallm90:

I still feel like your missing my main point @tdgeek and this is beginning to feel futile. @GV27 has made an effort to understand.

What I am saying is that assuming Max did everything he could to make the corner then it would be frustrating to see drivers get punished for that kind of thing. i.e. I hold the Vettel - Hamilton incident in Canada as Vettlel wasn't in control. I can fully see where you are coming from and I would have probably argued the same thing in 2014. Also as I have stated a number of times I don't want to see them start handing out penalties without a communicated change in approach.

Lets say Max did everything he could. He hit Charles, and subsequently passed him. So the stewards tell him to swap positions back as it was an unfair pass. Max can try again, hoping to get ahead on the turn, which means he can then choose his line and Charles will need to yield. Or, Max attempts the pass, they give each other room. Max passes.

But we got an unfair pass

As for Canada, we now know its now not about having control.

tdgeek

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#2268359 2-Jul-2019 12:11

The best way to avoid penalties is to have a consistent rule. Then they wont try to be bullies. In F1, bullying works if you have a name. That's the problem

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