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#2169391 29-Jan-2019 07:18

TeaLeaf:

We definitely 50 runs short.

I feel like we cant only really rely on Williamson and Taylor and possibly Latham, the rest of the team are not performing.

Why is it so easy for India to hit fours along the carpet. As I said their bowling is so consistant to a fielding team that are in positions to stop NZ,s batting.

Williamson was a prime example,he got so frustrated he couldnt find the gaps.

Yes, 50 runs short and out with 6 overs left is an improvement

The openers fail. That puts pressure on everybody else who cannot bat as well to bat to their capability plus make up the shortfall. You cant blame the others

They can hit the ball as they arent under any pressure to make up a shortfall. In this game the required RR was always low, no pressure

He did. Because he like the others are playing India but expecting a Sri Lanka score. You are not going to score almost 1100 runs in 3 innings against India, as we did with SL. The batting coach was all about batting with more intent that's a fail, thats asking for trouble if you bat for runs that are not there due to the capability of India. Id like to think that Taylor and Latham realised that and took what runs they could with a view to expanding later. Or maybe they didnt, their slow RR was due to being forced to stay in. That was the correct formula. They were batting at 3.5 runs over over, but later on it was 6.6. Thats what was needed. Thats the missing 50 runs and more, and while India would have batted harder if needed to, a game was definitely on

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#2169393 29-Jan-2019 07:22

TeaLeaf:

I think Southee will be in the 11 replacinf Bracewell and Nessham will replace Santner.

Maybe. Southee isn't getting wickets these days, but after the last game where Bracewell batted and bowled better than almost everyone he was disappointing last night

Why Santner? He took a wicket, his economy was great. Maybe Neesham to replace Bracewell

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#2169397 29-Jan-2019 07:29

sidders80:

TeaLeaf:

Styris is spot on. India isnt far superior, NZ has hit a confused low period. As they said the same batting line up destroyed India in India 14months ago and nothing has changed since then.

I just feel messing with the lineup and poor preparation we just dont have the assertiveness we had 14 monhths ago,

How do we fix that, play our best 11 and play the last 2 with that team. Maybe change up the operners with Latham and Munro swapping line up.

They still lost the series 2-1 in India so destroyed isn't entirely correct. Should have won the last match however failed to finish. We can't keep living in denial that the others are not so good and we are not that bad. Yes we are not that bad however 3 games in a row NZ have been beaten comprehensively. It can't be a fluke 3 times. Coming to SL series even they managed to almost pull off a target of 372. So lets stop living in a denial mode and admit there is a lot of hard work and shuffling required in order to be competitive at the World Cup.

Agree. We have a lot of talent, but its best to be a fan, but take the rose coloured glasses off and be realsitic. IMHO we have the talent and skill and gameplay to be right up there and to be very competitive against India. But our mindset and scores we are setting ourselves are too high against India. Ive said that all along, and Taylor and Latham showed the correct strategy, but I would not be surprised if their correct strategy last night was accidental, then planned as I alluded to earlier

When you lose Munro, that makes Guppy try harder. When he goes Kane tries harder. Taylor and Latham didnt do that, they sucked up a poor strike rate, where the batting coach was probably screaming, but it was the right way to play a top team.

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#2169399 29-Jan-2019 07:36

TeaLeaf:

There top and middle order figures is how ous should be looking. Messing with the middle with 3 players per game just makes the middle very unsettled.

Our openers need work for sure. Guptil was our pillar. I think he has to stay. We know for sure Munro can belt it and will go hard from the beggining. Perhaps we need to seriously consider that swap for Latham who is use to opening and is now a solid srtike rate player. Munro down the line makes sense.

I think Bracewell might replace Colin in the squad but he wont be first 11, Southee will be there and Neesham will be the all rounder.

So far thats Santner and Brace well in squad for the WC. I think we need to try some batsmen, now we have lost the series we may as well use it to test our batting stock, which is a bit limited.

No. Players batting like its SL causes them to go out, not the middles fault if they have to catch up

Openers are fine, its the mindset, forget this 350, 325, 300 BS, get in get settled take the runs you can. Its 90% harder to score when you are back in the pavillion

Munro has to go. Average of 23 at 104 is a no go. Remove him from the current and WC squad. That was all the talk in the commentary as well. Colin should not be there at all, average batsman, part time bowler, its a waste of a shirt. Bracewell I'm not sure on now, I'd give him another go. They talk about Will to bring him in lets do that, with Munro gone we have a spot, Latham to open

If we bat taking each over at a time, get set, stop fussing over 350 or par 300, we can build the innings, then no one later on has to play catchup.

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#2169420 29-Jan-2019 08:35

So the team list for the next ODIs is out, and the selectors have responded to our top order batting issues by dumping Sodhi and Bracewell.

I'm not kidding.

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#2169427 29-Jan-2019 08:56

Ouch. Munro stays. Its quite conceivable based on my opinion where our batsmen are not scoring, that its just as much down to Munro, as well as this fetish of 300 being par. They all seem to fall into the trap of catching up, and Munro fails every game. The rot starts there causing Guppy to make up, Kane to increase his strike rate even when hes struggling a but, like last night.

Neesham yes. Bracewell I can see that last night was a worry but the game before he was great. Seems that you need to go great 45 times in a row to stay in this team! he bats and bowls great, gets another game. Not great last night so he is fired. And keep Munro with the 19 average. That all makes no sense at all, Munro is proven, look at his stats and if thats not enough he always looked rocky last night on every ball.

I don't know much about Astle except that he seems ok. I guess ok will do in the WC??? Strikes me the team management of each game and the team overall is well off. No issue with looking for the best team, but if Munro stays there, they are playing cricket with 10 players not 11

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#2169439 29-Jan-2019 09:09

tdgeek:

Ouch. Munro stays. Its quite conceivable based on my opinion where our batsmen are not scoring, that its just as much down to Munro, as well as this fetish of 300 being par. They all seem to fall into the trap of catching up, and Munro fails every game. The rot starts there causing Guppy to make up, Kane to increase his strike rate even when hes struggling a but, like last night.

Neesham yes. Bracewell I can see that last night was a worry but the game before he was great. Seems that you need to go great 45 times in a row to stay in this team! he bats and bowls great, gets another game. Not great last night so he is fired. And keep Munro with the 19 average. That all makes no sense at all, Munro is proven, look at his stats and if thats not enough he always looked rocky last night on every ball.

I don't know much about Astle except that he seems ok. I guess ok will do in the WC??? Strikes me the team management of each game and the team overall is well off. No issue with looking for the best team, but if Munro stays there, they are playing cricket with 10 players not 11

Some people need to play well 45 times in a row. Munro doesn't have to, apparently. You would think Guptill would have a question mark over him too in other teams after his run this series.

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Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

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#2169445 29-Jan-2019 09:23

Yep. Id like to know if Guptill is going out naturally, or if he is trying to achieve a score he has been told to achieve. There seems to be a fetish with 300+ 300 is not hard, but it is very hard with a new ball and India. It was comfortable later on with Taylor and Latham scoring at 6.6

I am increasingly feeling its Munro starting the rot and pressure, followed by unrealistic batting expectations around 300+ scores. Stead talks about failing batting, Macmillan wants them to bat with more intent. Over an innings you can get that, but maybe the openers are expected to be cruising at 5.5 at minimum and its too tough then, but its ok over 50 overs as the 300 bowls can be managed. Circumspect early, gradually expand as the ball gets older the bowlers are lesser class. Sri Lanka scores cannot be seen as goals, its India now

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#2169627 29-Jan-2019 14:04

tdgeek:

Yep. Id like to know if Guptill is going out naturally, or if he is trying to achieve a score he has been told to achieve. There seems to be a fetish with 300+ 300 is not hard, but it is very hard with a new ball and India. It was comfortable later on with Taylor and Latham scoring at 6.6

100% agree about Munro but also think its his place in the squad and the expectation from Stead that is causing him to hit out early. Also agree about the strategy needs to change, Mccullum left a long time ago.

You dont HAVE to disagree with every comment mate :-)

The 300+ came from Stead. Thats what he expects the par score to be in the WC. I agree it was silly to try and acheive that on any surface against India, in saying the Mount pitch is probably the best batting pitch in NZ.

I also think testing out our squad was a good idea, but definitely cost us the series.

The thing with opening is, its very much a partnership. Look at Latham in Test cricket, HE SUCKED, until we put Raval in who can bat all day for 20 runs lol. The point is he can see off the new ball. Thats what I think we should go back to, traditional opening with a focus on scoring 7+ an over in the 30-40 overs. If we are 150/2 at 30 overs we should hit 300 easily with the right squad. And I think we do have the right squad, Munro proves that over and over in first class or provincial. The problem I have is where he is in the line up, which I think is the cause of Guptil feeling like its all on him to get us off to a 7+ an over like when he had Mccullum to partner with.

So IMO the simple answer is put Latham in at opening with Guptil and simply put Munro down the order, possibly even after Nichols so when that last 10 overs come we have someone who can hit 24 runs in an over and see 100 runs off the 10 overs.

Guptil is one of the leading ODI and definitely T20 players when he has the right partner and game plan.

I think they need to drop the high scoring opener plan that was made during the Mccullum era. Its not working.

I think Bracewell is much like Colin except not as good with the bat. He has had a good T20 game then a good ODI game, that for me is not enough to rely upon. In fact I feel more confident Colin will find form over Bracewell will repeat his efforts with the bat. Neither are that good with the ball. Neesham is definitely the go to all rounder with the bat and he could easily improve his medium-fast seamers by doing exactly what India have done, line and length for 60 balls, its as simple as that for bowlers, but the temptation to try something else gets the better of them. Pigeon/Glenn Mcgrath is probably the best example of this. He was awful when he bowled med-fast, when he dropped to medium pace but put the ball in the "good" zone and let the seam do the work he would bowl like that for the rest of his career and become one of the best seamers of all time. Clearly Richard Hadlee is the greatest elite all rounder who seams the ball of all time, he did exactly the same thing, but he didnt drop his pace, he just became repetitively annoying for the bowlers with an a ball 6inches outside offstump and sometimes it would seam through the bat pad, so many wickets bowled, more than I can remember of any seamer.

I think we should also go back to a traditional 6 batsman plus allrounder + 4 genuine bowlers

This is my squad for the WC so far.

Tom Latham
Martin Guptil
Willy
Ross the Boss
Nichols
Munro
Neesham
Southee
Sodhi
Ferguson
Boult

Santner
Colin ( I hate to have to put him in there but he is a much better batsman than Bracewell, his international and provincial stats back that up over a long period).
Henry
I think we need to test a batsman out for this last spot in the squad.

tdgeek

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#2169635 29-Jan-2019 14:26

TeaLeaf:

tdgeek:

Yep. Id like to know if Guptill is going out naturally, or if he is trying to achieve a score he has been told to achieve. There seems to be a fetish with 300+ 300 is not hard, but it is very hard with a new ball and India. It was comfortable later on with Taylor and Latham scoring at 6.6

100% agree about Munro but also think its his place in the squad and the expectation from Stead that is causing him to hit out early. Also agree about the strategy needs to change, Mccullum left a long time ago.

You dont HAVE to disagree with every comment mate :-)

The 300+ came from Stead. Thats what he expects the par score to be in the WC. I agree it was silly to try and acheive that on any surface against India, in saying the Mount pitch is probably the best batting pitch in NZ.

I also think testing out our squad was a good idea, but definitely cost us the series.

The thing with opening is, its very much a partnership. Look at Latham in Test cricket, HE SUCKED, until we put Raval in who can bat all day for 20 runs lol. The point is he can see off the new ball. Thats what I think we should go back to, traditional opening with a focus on scoring 7+ an over in the 30-40 overs. If we are 150/2 at 30 overs we should hit 300 easily with the right squad. And I think we do have the right squad, Munro proves that over and over in first class or provincial. The problem I have is where he is in the line up, which I think is the cause of Guptil feeling like its all on him to get us off to a 7+ an over like when he had Mccullum to partner with.

So IMO the simple answer is put Latham in at opening with Guptil and simply put Munro down the order, possibly even after Nichols so when that last 10 overs come we have someone who can hit 24 runs in an over and see 100 runs off the 10 overs.

Guptil is one of the leading ODI and definitely T20 players when he has the right partner and game plan.

I think they need to drop the high scoring opener plan that was made during the Mccullum era. Its not working.

I think Bracewell is much like Colin except not as good with the bat. He has had a good T20 game then a good ODI game, that for me is not enough to rely upon. In fact I feel more confident Colin will find form over Bracewell will repeat his efforts with the bat. Neither are that good with the ball. Neesham is definitely the go to all rounder with the bat and he could easily improve his medium-fast seamers by doing exactly what India have done, line and length for 60 balls, its as simple as that for bowlers, but the temptation to try something else gets the better of them. Pigeon/Glenn Mcgrath is probably the best example of this. He was awful when he bowled med-fast, when he dropped to medium pace but put the ball in the "good" zone and let the seam do the work he would bowl like that for the rest of his career and become one of the best seamers of all time. Clearly Richard Hadlee is the greatest elite all rounder who seams the ball of all time, he did exactly the same thing, but he didnt drop his pace, he just became repetitively annoying for the bowlers with an a ball 6inches outside offstump and sometimes it would seam through the bat pad, so many wickets bowled, more than I can remember of any seamer.

I think we should also go back to a traditional 6 batsman plus allrounder + 4 genuine bowlers

This is my squad for the WC so far.

Tom Latham
Martin Guptil
Willy
Ross the Boss
Nichols
Munro
Neesham
Southee
Sodhi
Ferguson
Boult

Santner
Colin ( I hate to have to put him in there but he is a much better batsman than Bracewell, his international and provincial stats back that up over a long period).
Henry
I think we need to test a batsman out for this last spot in the squad.

My disagreeing isn't intentional! Its just my opinion, nothing more

Stead and his magic number is ridiculous. Best batting side and the best bowling side will cause the batting side to struggle for a huge total. 300 doesnt win a game, the most runs wins the game. Its not really about BMC. Its a good tactic, but when we play arguably the best team in the world, that has to be allowed for, and we haven't.

I'd stick with Munro if he batted well down. He wont last 10 overs in the vast majority of cases

Testing and changing the side is fine with me, but when the coach says 300 and the batting coach says more intent please, you are asking for failure. It looks good re SL, but 3 games down and we are still 6 overs short. We will play Bangers next and get 350, and everyone will be happy, thats what grinds my wheels. Bangers and SL are practice, India is a serious team and a WC comparison.

Horses for courses. See what its like, get settled, don't fret over 3.5 RR it will come. It doesnt have to go back to 1980's play, we need to adapt to each track and each team we play, the are not all SL. If the coaches want to pretend cricket is a spreadsheet of numbers we will fail miserably at the WC as we will be beaten by our brain, by our coaches and by the opposition

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#2169643 29-Jan-2019 14:39

Latham

I never liked him. Not even as I met him when he was a toddler. Too slow to score runs and he still goes out regularly soon. Now, he can bat with a RR, and he is becoming super reliable, a real mainstay. Opener for sure 110%. Guptill can relax, accumulate, less is ok, more is good, just get what we can get. The opposite strategy to team management

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#2169662 29-Jan-2019 15:15

tdgeek:

Latham

I never liked him. Not even as I met him when he was a toddler. Too slow to score runs and he still goes out regularly soon. Now, he can bat with a RR, and he is becoming super reliable, a real mainstay. Opener for sure 110%. Guptill can relax, accumulate, less is ok, more is good, just get what we can get. The opposite strategy to team management

yep thats what Im saying. Seen it time and time again with Guptil. And if you lose 2 of your best batsmen early that basically is batting team of 4 and an all rounder. Of which imo given Neesham is injured, Santner is the only semi reliable one on the right wicket. I think Colin could produce again. But the point is, we should be relying on Munro and the allrounder in the final 10 overs not in thr 20th or 30th. Just shows how good Ross Taylor is to be the backbone of a team versus clearly the best team in the world considering they were minus the best bowler in the world. Now they Minus the best batsman in the world currently.

I its simple we need to learn from India that bowling and fielding to a set plan wins games along with a good batting squad. Their seamers are placing the ball on a dime to a set field, thats why we cant penetrate, only Williamson who can lift his body to get a full face of the bat could penetrate those seamers, then he got tied down, the plan should have been to hit to the onside from that end but in the air as the wind will carry it 15 metres if high enough. But he hit it to the perfectly place fields man because they know can doesnt hit it in the air often, 9.9/10 he would have hit that 5 foot shorter of the fielder and to the side of him, but he was clearly showing frustration.

In summary, try to bowl line and length every ball to the set field which will be heavily stacked off side, if you cant swing it, use a straight up and down seam and let it find the piece of the pitch that will undo the batsman. Batting, see off their best bowlers in the first 10 and accept 40 in the first 10, get to 90 by 20 with only 1 wicket down and thats what is simply called a platform, takes ALL the pressure off. Try to score as high as we can cleaverly but ignore trying to get to 300 at all cost mentality against India. It will work against a lot of teams. I think we are on par with Australia at the moment with our first 11.

yes Latham was so close to being dropped which would have seen him not given another chance for 5 years which would be sad. His strike rate and average in ODIs is perfect for an opener. He knows how to stay in, he has dropped shots that have undone him. He is our best batsman against Spin.

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#2169666 29-Jan-2019 15:24

TeaLeaf:

yes Latham was so close to being dropped which would have seen him not given another chance for 5 years which would be sad. His strike rate and average in ODIs is perfect for an opener. He knows how to stay in, he has dropped shots that have undone him. He is our best batsman against Spin.

I consider Taylor reliable (obviously) And Kane, also obviously. I rate Latham just behind them for consistency of a contribution. I don't expect him to go out. He has that solidity of his game now. Big gap to the next in order of reliability. They can all perform but a big gap

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#2169788 29-Jan-2019 17:21

tdgeek:

TeaLeaf:

yes Latham was so close to being dropped which would have seen him not given another chance for 5 years which would be sad. His strike rate and average in ODIs is perfect for an opener. He knows how to stay in, he has dropped shots that have undone him. He is our best batsman against Spin.

I consider Taylor reliable (obviously) And Kane, also obviously. I rate Latham just behind them for consistency of a contribution. I don't expect him to go out. He has that solidity of his game now. Big gap to the next in order of reliability. They can all perform but a big gap

I like his average and now is SR in ODIs, SR80. 5 an over. Thats all we need from an opening partnership, with Guptil having the ability to hit a 6 on any ground in the world, but for him it has to be lofted straight drives, its his best and most technically correct 6. And if he has somebody reliable and they are told to create a platform, he wont just pounce on every ball, he will wait for the 2ft out ball not moving slightly offside, so he can just swing through the ball.

Latham will take time to become a Taylor, if ever, but hes definitely got the right stuff and Im glad we stuck with him even if at times i thought they were crazy. For most of his career Fleming averaged 30, but because he was captain he didnt get dropped, he finished with 40avg. Mark Richardson, one of our better opening batsmen had a test avg of 40. So I think Latham is at least as good as them, perhaps between them and Taylor/Williamson. Easily good enough to open. And having Munro down the order really takes the pressure off everybody.

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#2169792 29-Jan-2019 17:26

Munro averages 55 in first class at SR105. The guy cannot be ignored. But ODIs 25 at SR 105. I think down the order his average blossom from 25 closer to 40 and his SR would also be closer to 150 given he will be our pinch hitter for the final 20.

Munro is 2nd only behind MArtin Crowe for average for all players scoring 3000 runs or more.

Check this record out, I dont think this will ever be broken and Im wondering if its a world record still.

G.M.Turner

455

792

101

311*

34346

49.70

455 matches lol 792 innings HS 311NO 34346 with an average overall just under 50 haha, turner went on and on, he is one of our true greats.

What about Hadlee Test stats, not only was he the first man in history to 300 wickets, look at his bowling average 22.29, thats insane compared to our current lot. He also scored a double century in first class cricket.

Im trying to find some batsmen as good as Munro to trial but is stifling.

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