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frankv
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  #2904889 21-Apr-2022 15:59
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Technofreak:

 

Note, I said passenger prop driven aircraft. I'm well aware that some prop driven aircraft (mainly military) have speeds in excess of 250 knots. Also I think you are confusing IAS with TAS. Most of the speed figures you see are TAS figures obtained at altitude.

 

At the altitudes these aircraft will operate at, TAS and IAS are pretty well the same. None of the turbo prop aircraft I am familiar with will cruise straight and level at 250 knots indicated, in fact most have a Vmo limitation of around the 250 KIAS mark. I stick by my comment about 290 knots being bulls**t.

 

 

My point is that turboprop aircraft are designed to fly at 250kt or less at low altitude because Civil Aviation safety (as in avoiding collisions) dictates it, not because there's a physical limitation. There's no point in designing them to go any faster. There's no shortage of prop-driven aircraft (whether turbine or piston) that can exceed 250kts, so it's clearly not a physical limitation of the propellor.

 

 

I didn't say WIGE cannot be done. It has been done in Russia for moving freight across large flat uninhabited areas. I said no one has done it for point to point passenger type of application and that adding electric propulsion wasn't going to enable the uses being talked about in that article. If you think differently I'd be interested to hear how you think it might work.

 

 

There's nothing inherently different about moving passengers vs moving freight. But I do agree that electric propulsion (or more correctly, batteries for electric propulsion) would add greatly to the difficulty. Presumably Regent have done their sums and figure that using ground effect to increase the efficiency of their craft means they can carry enough batteries for an hour of flight and still have room for 10-12 passengers.

 

However, there is a Moller air-car smell about this, with lots of publicity attracting lots of money, but as yet very little to show for it. And so far all they have is that they have just begun testing a 1/4-scale RC model. Let's assume they have already begun building their first prototype, and will have it flying in a year. That's mid-22. I think that's the soonest you might expect. That leaves them 2.5 years to build 25 aircraft (which is just for NZ... as I said there's also the English Channel and US East Coast), say one a month. Again, I think it's on the optimistic edge of doable. Maybe because they avoid the FAA, CAA, etc they'll avoid the huge certification cost and time associated with aircraft. I don't know how difficult maritime certification is. Or how good it would be at ensuring passenger safety.

 

Maybe if I have $5B in the bank I'd take a punt on this? Or if I had $1M in the bank and a desperate "damn the torpedoes" desire to get $5B?

 

 

 

 




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  #2904893 21-Apr-2022 16:10
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vexxxboy:

 

15 metres or so on a good day, way to close for comfort

 

 

yea still a bit of an exaggeration there

 

there has been 14m waves in the worst of storms but thats few and far between.

 

Ferrys get cancelled at 6m

 

Record recorded wave is 19.66m (world wide)

 

 

 

 


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  #2904955 21-Apr-2022 16:46
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Hahahah never going to happen, A bit like Elon's hyper tube thing.





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Technofreak
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  #2904957 21-Apr-2022 16:47
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frankv:

 

Technofreak:

 

Note, I said passenger prop driven aircraft. I'm well aware that some prop driven aircraft (mainly military) have speeds in excess of 250 knots. Also I think you are confusing IAS with TAS. Most of the speed figures you see are TAS figures obtained at altitude.

 

At the altitudes these aircraft will operate at, TAS and IAS are pretty well the same. None of the turbo prop aircraft I am familiar with will cruise straight and level at 250 knots indicated, in fact most have a Vmo limitation of around the 250 KIAS mark. I stick by my comment about 290 knots being bulls**t.

 

 

My point is that turboprop aircraft are designed to fly at 250kt or less at low altitude because Civil Aviation safety (as in avoiding collisions) dictates it, not because there's a physical limitation. There's no point in designing them to go any faster. There's no shortage of prop-driven aircraft (whether turbine or piston) that can exceed 250kts, so it's clearly not a physical limitation of the propellor.

 

 

Oh, but there is a physical limitation.

 

The 250 knot limit you refer to only applies below 10,000 feet. If you look up the limitations of turbo prop passenger aircraft you will see they ( with very few exceptions) have a Vmo of about 250 KIAS. Beech 1900D - 248 KIAS, Metro III - 246 KIAS, Dash 8-300 - 243 KIAS, ATR72-500 - 250 KIAS, SAAB 340 - 250 KIAS. This limitation has nothing to do with any Civil Aviation dictate, it is an airframe limitation, not a propeller limitation, and applies at all altitudes. It is based around Mach No with the general limit for this type of aircraft being between 0.48 to 0.55 Mach. Also, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread the power require to propel this type of aircraft faster than 250 KIAS increases dramatically above 250 KIAS. This increased power requirement isn't in keeping with the capacity of the batteries.

 

It's one thing to be able to go faster then 250 KIAS and another being able to cruise faster than 250 KIAS.

 

Remember I said right at the start I was talking about passenger aircraft. Can you provide a list of the aircraft fitting this criteria that can exceed 250 KIAS. I know of only one, possibly two.





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ezbee
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  #2905108 21-Apr-2022 19:45
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No mention of how much taxpayer money these guys might be after, in R&D grants and various other funds.

 

Like...
Our superannuation fund invested in a USA wind power invention that was quite dodgy, and lost all its investment.
$55 Million down the drain.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9726293/Super-investment-winded-by-critics

 

That's my main concern, Billionaires often good at spending other peoples money :-) 

 

If its all Peter Thiel's money I'm not to worried. 
Spend away high value jobs for kiwis while it lasts.

 

Problems are certainly that things that fly, fly better when lighter, weight is critical.
It also means you have some extra for a payload, people and freight.
Batteries are really really heavy, and all the structure then has to be heavier as well.

 

Water is pretty hard on fast moving structures, so once again weight to strengthen everything.

 

A rich environment for seabirds and seafarers.

 

We have weather ?  Wellington to Christchurch ??

 

I suspect Ekranoplan was built like proverbial for a reason.
https://www.sovietwastelands.com/ekranoplan-the-caspian-sea-monster/

 

Anyway providing its not a scadpile of my taxes going into this, it should be fun to watch.


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  #2905116 21-Apr-2022 20:33
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ezbee:

 

 

 

That's my main concern, Billionaires often good at spending other peoples money :-) 

 

If its all Peter Thiel's money I'm not to worried. 
Spend away high value jobs for kiwis while it lasts.

 


this screams like a punt for more funding.. Theil ( and others IT billionaires) live to have their name attached as a method to reel in more funding from other sources....

 

 2025 is far enough to be far, but not too far to invest in... but in 2025 we are also promised air nz will be taking delivery of small e-aircraft .. so it’s not an open and shut case for this new tech

 

 


 
 
 

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  #2905146 21-Apr-2022 23:38
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Jase2985:

 

vexxxboy:

 

15 metres or so on a good day, way to close for comfort

 

 

yea still a bit of an exaggeration there

 

there has been 14m waves in the worst of storms but thats few and far between.

 

Ferrys get cancelled at 6m

 

Record recorded wave is 19.66m (world wide)

 

 

Freight-only sailings across Cook Strait battle on in much higher seas. In the early 2000's I was working on the Lynx ferry and it was cancelled for a number of days due to a storm. I chose to double down and work aboard one of the back up freight ships on a few of those days (the MV Purbeck - a smaller ship leased by Kiwirail [or Toll Holdings as it was then] for overnight freight).

 

 

Anyway, this sailing was indeed meant for freight only but from memory we had around 15-20 passengers. You know the kind - the "I absolutely have to get across the strait tonight and I don't care how rough it is" kind. We warned them all that it would not be a pleasant sailing and suggested they should make other arrangements but you know how some people are.

 

Because this ship had none of the usual passenger amenities, the passengers basically ended up locked in the mess room, unable to move around the ship for their own safety. We also refused to give them anything to eat or drink (except water and ice) until we reached the relative calm of the Marlborough Sounds. This made some of them quite irate.

 

I remember the wave heights were in the vicinity of 10-11 metres. I actually loved every minute of it. Most of those 15-20 passengers were sick as dogs but it would have been much worse had they had full stomachs. They were a miserable looking bunch until we got to the sounds (which took many hours longer than usual btw). Once in the calm we fed and watered them and they perked up, but I doubt any of them will be in a hurry to get on an essential freight sailing in a storm again....

 

I worked for the Interislander from '99 to 2006 across several different vessels/ships and saw some pretty rough crossings in that time, but for many of the worst we had no paying passengers onboard - just freight (and truckies).


MikeAqua
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  #2905202 22-Apr-2022 09:45
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I used to like the old Suilven.  Weather? What weather? Stabilisers out and go!





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frankv
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  #2905345 22-Apr-2022 11:33
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Technofreak:

 

Oh, but there is a physical limitation.

 

The 250 knot limit you refer to only applies below 10,000 feet. If you look up the limitations of turbo prop passenger aircraft you will see they ( with very few exceptions) have a Vmo of about 250 KIAS. Beech 1900D - 248 KIAS, Metro III - 246 KIAS, Dash 8-300 - 243 KIAS, ATR72-500 - 250 KIAS, SAAB 340 - 250 KIAS. This limitation has nothing to do with any Civil Aviation dictate, it is an airframe limitation, not a propeller limitation, and applies at all altitudes. It is based around Mach No with the general limit for this type of aircraft being between 0.48 to 0.55 Mach. Also, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread the power require to propel this type of aircraft faster than 250 KIAS increases dramatically above 250 KIAS. This increased power requirement isn't in keeping with the capacity of the batteries.

 

It's one thing to be able to go faster then 250 KIAS and another being able to cruise faster than 250 KIAS.

 

Remember I said right at the start I was talking about passenger aircraft. Can you provide a list of the aircraft fitting this criteria that can exceed 250 KIAS. I know of only one, possibly two.

 

 

Again... the 250kt "limit" is a *design* limitation, not a *physical* limitation. It is entirely possible to design propellor-driven aircraft, whether turbine-powered or piston-engined, that can cruise at over 250kts, just as it is possible to design turbofan aircraft to exceed that speed. There is nothing inherent in carrying passengers that makes the aircraft any different. Short-haul passenger aircraft, of which you give several examples, are designed for a 250kt (or so) Vmo because this provides the best economics between climbing and descending at or below 250kts below 10,000ft as per regulations (which will be a significant amount of the time) and flying at up to 250kt IAS above 10,000ft. There is no point in sacrificing some other aspect of the design (e.g. number of passengers) to increase the Vmo beyond 250kts because it will rarely be used in operations. Yes, you get to a point where the extra drag at higher speeds makes turbo-props uneconomic vs turbofans, but is an economic limit, not a physical one.

 

The economics of short-haul passenger aircraft don't apply to ekranoplanes, because (a) they can lift more weight for a given horsepower because they fly in ground effect, and (b) they are considered to be ships, so not subject to CAA regulations, so the 250kt limit doesn't apply. In the case of Regent's ekranoplanes, their economics are also not dependent on the price of jet fuel or the efficiency of burning it. 

 

As I said, I think this smells of money-seeking hype. I agree that it seems unlikely to be economically viable. But it remains to be seen whether the economics of electric-powered ekranoplanes around NZ (and particularly across Cook Strait) works out. It may be that developments in battery technology before 2025 will make it feasible.


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  #2905466 22-Apr-2022 18:51
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MikeAqua:

eracode:


Interesting because Blenheim is not actually a port.



Maybe he meant Picton?  But land transport Picton-Blenheim would take longer than the AirNZ flight time between Wellington and Blenheim, which is longer than Sounds Air gate-to-gate time.


I mean I suppose you could go up the Wairau Estuary, but not far and good luck getting consent for a dock.



Agree Blenheim is not considered a port. Though it does have history of Blenheim to Wellington shipping on a small scale. The Scow Echo did sail over the Wairau Bar and up the Opaoa (Opawa) River to Eckford Wharf at Leeds Quay Blenheim. Some warehouses still exist.




:)


Technofreak
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  #2905499 22-Apr-2022 22:35
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frankv:

 

Again... the 250kt "limit" is a *design* limitation, not a *physical* limitation. It is entirely possible to design propellor-driven aircraft, whether turbine-powered or piston-engined, that can cruise at over 250kts, just as it is possible to design turbofan aircraft to exceed that speed. There is nothing inherent in carrying passengers that makes the aircraft any different. Short-haul passenger aircraft, of which you give several examples, are designed for a 250kt (or so) Vmo because this provides the best economics between climbing and descending at or below 250kts below 10,000ft as per regulations (which will be a significant amount of the time) and flying at up to 250kt IAS above 10,000ft. There is no point in sacrificing some other aspect of the design (e.g. number of passengers) to increase the Vmo beyond 250kts because it will rarely be used in operations. Yes, you get to a point where the extra drag at higher speeds makes turbo-props uneconomic vs turbofans, but is an economic limit, not a physical one.

 

 

We're getting off on a tangent but the 250 knot limit has nothing to do with speed limits below 10,000 feet. Can we please get away from that concept. The method of determining the Vmo/Mmo is laid out in the relative design rule in this case I think from memory FAR 23-1505. It doesn't mention anything about FAA/CAA speed limits below 10,000 feet.

 

Also contrary to what you seem to think turbo prop aircraft spend a comparatively small amount of time operating below 10,000 feet.

 

Whether you want to call the limitation a design or a physical limitation is a moot point in many ways. Everything is a compromise. You can find an engineering or design fix for many issues but usually in doing so create a compromise elsewhere. For example on some aircraft the Vmo/Mmo is limited by windscreen strength in case of a bird strike. It's possible to build a stronger screen but with a weight or cost penalty. There has to be a balance struck somewhere. There is a physical limit to how heavy the aircraft can be and how much it will cost. Is the speed limit set by the windscreen, a physical limit or a design limit? I'd say it's a physical limit.

 

Vmo/Mmo limits are determined during flight testing and can be determined by a range of factors. e.g. flutter, critical mach number on some part of the airframe including engine inlets, windscreen strength, gear door integrity, controllability, propeller tip speed. Vmo/Mmo are then set at about 10% less than the speed where the problem occurred. It just happens that for a turbo props this generally occurs for one reason or another at about 250 KIAS.

 

Yes, turbo fan aircraft do go faster, quite a bit faster in fact. You might have noticed also they have swept wings which allow for a higher mach number but the wing sweep compromises take off and landing performance. As it is turbo fan aircraft have fancy lift augmentation devices to help overcome this problem but in doing so add cost and complexity that aren't desirable on smaller aircraft like a turbo prop. Turbo props are generally designed to operate out of shorter runways than turbo fan aircraft. You could design a turbo prop with swept wings but in doing so you'd significantly reduce its usefulness. Once again a compromise, a physical limitation.

 

Back to one of my original statements; their claim of a 290 knot cruise is just pure BS. Remember the ~ 250 Vmo/Mmo you see for most current turbo props is a limit. Pretty well none of the aircraft I listed earlier would get anywhere near 250 KIAS in straight and level at any altitude. Certainly not at a fuel burn that would be anything close to acceptable. It would effectively be much worse on a battery powered aircraft.

 

P.S. You might be interested to know that Vmo/Mmo operations aren't as rare as you seem to think. Turbo props operate at or just below Vmo/Mmo on nearly every descent unless conditions or company procedures dictate otherwise. If they could go faster they would.





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SomeoneSomewhere
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  #2905553 23-Apr-2022 00:27
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This may be a useful hint: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/82434/how-is-the-dash-8-q400-so-fast

 

 

 

Q400 cruises at up to ~243KIAS, significantly faster than the otherwise similar size, weight, and configuration ATR72. Why? Engines are twice the power. Note also the maximum KIAS values (and Vmo) in the table shown, at lower altitudes,  are ~280. This is a turboprop that is engineered for speed significantly more than its competitors.

 

More speed, more guzzle.

 

 

 

Ekranoplans have been around for decades. If it was readily feasible to make an electric one now and compete with jet aircraft, it would have been feasible to construct a turboprop one 30 years ago.


ezbee
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  #2905614 23-Apr-2022 11:10
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quickymart   Love the air of , yeh some issues but we can overcome in the article.

 

Given the amount of recreational boating and that even cargo vessels seem to have problems keeping to lanes.
This would seem to provide major obstacle to getting consents. 

 

""
“If it's sailing at 540kph just above the water you're going to have significant water displacement in terms of waves and wash.

 

“So you might not strike a small fishing vessel, but you could very easily turn it over because of the wake that you're creating when you're going at that speed.”

 

Marine Transport Association executive director Margaret Wind said there would need to be designated lanes for a craft like seagliders.
""

 

People are not going to give up their freedom of navigation that easily. 
It seems an unacceptably high potentially fatal cost for making a navigation error.

 

""
That would require greater resourcing, which could be achieved by charging a licence fee for all recreational vessels, she said.
""

 

Well that's it its dead !


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  #2905634 23-Apr-2022 12:58
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@frankv Most jets are capable of 320 KIAS. The problem is that hitting something at that speed is somewhat of a problem. It's standard to limit the speed to below 250 kts at altitudes below 5000 ft to prevent damage from (generally) bird strikes.

These craft will be far more susceptible to bird strikes given their proximity to bird life in all phases of operation.

Sure, they might be able to fly faster than 250 kts but it's a really dumb idea from a safety perspective.




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