This service could replace the ferries, or aeroplanes

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#2915490 18-May-2022 10:58

hairy1:

Holy crap. Same timeframe across the Tasman as an Airbus or 737. 450 kts at sea level is seriously pie in the sky talk.

I wonder if someone can tell him the difference between IAS and TAS... sigh.

Most peoples eyes glaze over once you start to delve in to 1/2 ρ V² S

450 knots at sea level is seriously fast (~2/3 the speed of sound) and takes a shit load of energy to propel a vehicle at that speed.

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#2955770 17-Aug-2022 21:26

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/129601892/ocean-flyer-promises-a-transport-revolution-but-perception-issues-remain

Technofreak

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#2955919 18-Aug-2022 10:22

quickymart:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/129601892/ocean-flyer-promises-a-transport-revolution-but-perception-issues-remain

Dreamers will be dreamers. I see they're now saying 180 knots which is a much more realistic speed, but the whole concept is still pie in the sky.

They show their ignorance with their fog comment. They won't be able to operate in thick fog.

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raytaylor

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#2956086 18-Aug-2022 15:34

Technofreak:

They show their ignorance with their fog comment. They won't be able to operate in thick fog.

I dont know much about oceangoing so I wonder if anyone can tell me

- How high does a typical layer of fog sit above the water on a foggy morning?

- Does the fog hug the land, or does it go out to sea some distance? Can they fly round it?

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#2956093 18-Aug-2022 15:52

Technofreak:

Dreamers will be dreamers. I see they're now saying 180 knots which is a much more realistic speed, but the whole concept is still pie in the sky.

Assuming it all works ( and I have yet to be convinced)

The number of potential routes is likely quite small, with short hops ;ole WLG- Christchurch is probably their best hope of any significant traffic, then perhaps some short routes out of AKL- Whangarei or Tauranga,

There other unanswered questions such as "how are the sea lanes managed", its quite clear that this thing will require exclusive routes... how do you manage existing shipping which will need to cross these routes (often)l....

The current sea rules are not written for things moving this fast, and any changes are likely to get heavily bogged down in international negotiations,

BUT hey, they are a VC startup "disruptor" so they wont be worrying about stuff like that, they will expect the world to bend to their will...

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#2956163 18-Aug-2022 16:18

raytaylor:

- Does the fog hug the land, or does it go out to sea some distance? Can they fly round it?

I presume fog can go anywhere the water does - warm moist air meeting cold sea = fog.

Thats why ships have the horns.

If they're on visual flight rules, they'll have to go around it.

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#2956222 18-Aug-2022 16:43

the whole concept is lala land.

one of the simple big issues is how do you land it. float planes have speed and wave size limitations. the expectation is that if anything goes wrong you just land on water. however at that speed or big enough wave height, its a case of you crash and die.

10m is nothing for flying height. a bit of turbulence will make it drop that. just look at the airfish8 video of it turning and almost hitting the water with the wing, on flat sea with no waves.

for regulation, its technically considered a boat, but no maritime understands planes, so it would be passed on to FAA/CAA (who does the floatplanes) who will promptly ground it. altitude is a pilots best friend, no one is going to let them fly constantly at 10m above the ground.

not even getting into the rather dubious electric propulsion system.

it all smacks of PR campaign to suck more investors in so primary investors can bail out. no different to that aussie combustion engine decades ago whose head guy was driving around in a supercar at investors cost, until it all went belly up.

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#2956274 18-Aug-2022 16:49

raytaylor:

- Does the fog hug the land, or does it go out to sea some distance? Can they fly round it?

one of the issues is its difficult for them to fly around it. a float plane can fly above it, where as this thing will have to go around the edge. trouble is the only places for it to land is typically in sheltered coves/harbors, which is generally where the fog is. they cannot just divert to another airport like a plane can and they cannot just land in the open sea.

however its easy enough to phone ahead to make sure its clear before leaving.

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#2956278 18-Aug-2022 17:08

tweake:

it all smacks of PR campaign to suck more investors in so primary investors can bail out. no different to that aussie combustion engine decades ago whose head guy was driving around in a supercar at investors cost, until it all went belly up.

Was that the guy from Queensland we had shilled to us on "60 minutes" and similar shows in the 90s running his car on a hydrogen catalyst that only required water rather than any fuel,

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#2956279 18-Aug-2022 17:13

raytaylor:

Technofreak:

They show their ignorance with their fog comment. They won't be able to operate in thick fog.

I dont know much about oceangoing so I wonder if anyone can tell me

- How high does a typical layer of fog sit above the water on a foggy morning?

- Does the fog hug the land, or does it go out to sea some distance? Can they fly round it?

Went boating on one of the foggy days in Auckland recently (questionable I know).

Fog comes right down or close to the water. I was perhaps 0.6m off the water, and visibility was down well to about 50m at times.

It goes out to sea some distance. Didn't get into clear vis untill I passed the corner to be on the ocean side of Waiheke. I was hoping it would burn off for the return trip around noon, but it hadn't yet.

Understand that boats are allowed in fog at speeds that require navigational aids (radar, GPS, AIS etc) for navigation and collision avoidance, but it must be done with serious caution. It is only really commercial boats that have AIS transmitters (and the odd ocean cruising sailboat, that is worried about getting run down by ships in the dark), and the radar cross section of say a kayak-er is pretty small. In places where fog is common, many of the sailboats (much bigger than a kayak er) have a radar reflector to increase their radar cross section.

Any other moving boat within say a km, or being close to an area where there might be kayakers, dinghies etc would make slowing to walking speed prudent.

The likes of the Waikiki ferries run in the fog (and at reasonable speeds), but it is still common for them to get delayed due to the extra caution the skippers need to take around other boats.

20knots in a boat is a bit of a different situation to doing 180 knot's in a ground effect vehicle though.

Nice thing about a ground effect vehicle over the sea, is that the option of slowing down and landing is pritty much always on the table. and if the conditions don't suit lifting off they can operate as a boat (at 1/20th the speed).

Not really sure how a ground effect vehicle's are regulated. Do you use aviation of maritime qualifications and system's?

tweake

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#2956281 18-Aug-2022 17:15

wellygary:

tweake:

it all smacks of PR campaign to suck more investors in so primary investors can bail out. no different to that aussie combustion engine decades ago whose head guy was driving around in a supercar at investors cost, until it all went belly up.

Was that the guy from Queensland we had shilled to us on "60 minutes" and similar shows in the 90s running his car on a hydrogen catalyst that only required water rather than any fuel,

no, thats different (i shall try to find it) and if i recall they caught him out using an exhaust analyser. carbon emissions gives it away that its not water. there is a few people who tried that, its basically an emulsifier so you can water down petrol with water.

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tweake

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#2956285 18-Aug-2022 17:24

Scott3:

Nice thing about a ground effect vehicle over the sea, is that the option of slowing down and landing is pritty much always on the table.

No.

This is a common preconception. Just like float planes they have maximum wave heights. if sea is to rough they cannot land. the russians got around that by making theirs huge.

Imagen doing 80-100 knots and slamming into a wave.

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#2956288 18-Aug-2022 17:32

At speed, water is like concrete. ;-)

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#2956311 18-Aug-2022 18:21

Dingbatt:

I’ve got to ask, why does it matter that it is backed by Peter Thiel? The article seems to spend a lot of time on this rather than the technology itself.

I was casting my mind back to when the flying boats used to operate out of Mechanics Bay on the Auckland waterfront, and the restrictions surrounding it.

The 700 million. I live in ChCh, Id be happy with a 400 million bus service that ran every 8 minutes. Great idea but doesnt seem financially viable

We need to talk viable more than newsfeed inches

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#2971722 22-Sep-2022 13:56

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/300694338/zeroemission-seaglider-set-to-transform-travel-in-nz-completes-maiden-voyage The oversized model in action. Still a long way off.

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