Bombing at Manchester concert, 19 dead

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#1788927 26-May-2017 21:09

Wiggum:

The presidency went to Trump because he was the best of the two, and he has the balls to take on ISIS.

What we really need is for Trump to do a deal with Isis; fairly universally, those who have made deals with Trump got screwed.

Rikkitic

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#1789044 27-May-2017 09:47

Wiggum:

You forgetting, most of the USA agrees with me. And most of America don't agree on your view on the man either. I don't need to state the basis of my conclusion. My conclusion is what it is.

Trump won the election, and that is the proof he was the best of the two candidates. End of discussion.

Most of the USA does not agree with you. As has repeatedly been pointed out, Hilary won the popular vote, something Trump still cannot get his head around. Since then he has had one of the lowest approval ratings in history and it continues to plummet. People who voted for him are reported to have regretted it, though there are not (yet) any statistics on this. There are major grass-roots protest movements against him in most states. That is the real end of the discussion. Yes, he won, which makes him the 'better' candidate. But he is definitely not the better president.

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#1789054 27-May-2017 10:12

Wiggum:

frankv:

But I believe that the situation in Europe is very different... My impression is that those young men are not volunteering for suicide bomb missions out of loyalty to anything, not even religion. There's no particular group cohesion going on. Rather it's individual; I think a profound anger at the country and civilization that they live in, and are citizens of. But maybe I got that wrong.

I think you have it very wrong.

These individuals are no different to the "suicide bombers" of 911. And it has an awfully lot to do with their religion/and or culture.

But possibly not in the way you think.

From what I've read of this particular idiot (Abedi), he'd been turfed out of a local Mosque for abusing an imam who was speaking - condemning ISIL - and his behaviour had been notified to authorities on several occasions.

Terrific work by the UK authorities *if that's correct. Scare the crap out of most of the population by officially raising the "terror alert level" while telling people "don't panic" out of the other corner of their mouths, but when something was apparently put right under their noses, they fail.

(* so I read this in UK news - not 100% reliable)

I do not agree that "these individuals are no different to the suicide bombers of 911".

I believe that OBL's plot was extremely well planned and coordinated, the hijackers carefully selected and trained, all (including OBL) deeply genuinely religious.

OTOH many of ISILs "attacks" seem to be carried out by "nutters". They deliberately recruit nutters, tell them the type of target to select, how to carry it out for maximum effect (including maximum publicity), there's nothing "secret" or unexpected, as they (ISIL) are open about what they're doing.

Not sure how the authorities have got this so wrong now on quite a few occasions. They seem fixated on the idea that "the threat" is a coordinated well-planned assault (which of course could also still be on the cards) but seem to not worry so much about the "nutters" being reported to them - yet recruiting "nutters" in the west seems to ISIL's MO. Lone wolf, or small groups of dumb disaffected fools - not a precision attack like 911.

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#1789067 27-May-2017 10:47

Ariana Grande has announced her intention to return to Manchester for a benefit concert and to mingle and commiserate with her fans. I think this shows real character. As an official old person, I hadn't heard of her before the tragedy, but she is now a real hero in my book.

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networkn

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#1789082 27-May-2017 11:12

Rikkitic:

Ariana Grande has announced her intention to return to Manchester for a benefit concert and to mingle and commiserate with her fans. I think this shows real character. As an official old person, I hadn't heard of her before the tragedy, but she is now a real hero in my book.

We have different ideas on the threshold of a hero I think. This is what any decent person would consider doing. I do think it's important to note that I believe she is no more "responsible" for these attacks, than anyone else there, except the bomber.

It's a nice thing to do, but calling her a hero is WAY over the top.

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#1789085 27-May-2017 11:28

We disagree. She didn't have to do this. A lot of people in her position would have just mouthed a few platitudes and moved on. Of course the real heroes are those who helped the victims and are pursuing the bad guys, but I still think she deserves the epithet.

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#1789090 27-May-2017 11:45

Rikkitic:

We disagree. She didn't have to do this. A lot of people in her position would have just mouthed a few platitudes and moved on. Of course the real heroes are those who helped the victims and are pursuing the bad guys, but I still think she deserves the epithet.

You have stated the "real" heroes are the ones who helped the victims, ran TOWARD the danger etc. So she isn't a "real" hero, what kind of hero is she?

She didn't have to do it, it makes her generous, but it's also great PR for her. Nothing "heroic" in it. I have nothing against her, it's a nice gesture. I hope it goes well, I hope she raises a lot of money, I hope it helps the victims in some way.

But heroic? Not a chance.

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#1789091 27-May-2017 11:45

networkn:

Rikkitic:

Ariana Grande has announced her intention to return to Manchester for a benefit concert and to mingle and commiserate with her fans. I think this shows real character. As an official old person, I hadn't heard of her before the tragedy, but she is now a real hero in my book.

We have different ideas on the threshold of a hero I think. This is what any decent person would consider doing. I do think it's important to note that I believe she is no more "responsible" for these attacks, than anyone else there, except the bomber.

It's a nice thing to do, but calling her a hero is WAY over the top.

Definitely does not fit my definition of hero either. Thats way over the top.

That said, this is very decent of her. I'm sure she is suffering a lot of pain because of this bombing at her concert. It can't be very nice to be in her shoes at the moment and I am sure she is suffering because of it.

surfisup1000

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#1789092 27-May-2017 11:57

Rikkitic:

Wiggum:

You forgetting, most of the USA agrees with me. And most of America don't agree on your view on the man either. I don't need to state the basis of my conclusion. My conclusion is what it is.

Trump won the election, and that is the proof he was the best of the two candidates. End of discussion.

Most of the USA does not agree with you. As has repeatedly been pointed out, Hilary won the popular vote, something Trump still cannot get his head around. Since then he has had one of the lowest approval ratings in history and it continues to plummet. People who voted for him are reported to have regretted it, though there are not (yet) any statistics on this. There are major grass-roots protest movements against him in most states. That is the real end of the discussion. Yes, he won, which makes him the 'better' candidate. But he is definitely not the better president.

You are quite wrong by using the popular vote argument...This is the argument of poor losers..It is equivalent to stating our team would have won if the rules had been different here there and here.... This argument does not account for the fact the winning team would adjust their game plan under different rules.... If it had been a popular vote election trump would still likely win.

Plenty of reading out there....

Rikkitic

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#1789103 27-May-2017 12:34

Wiggum:

networkn:

We have different ideas on the threshold of a hero I think. This is what any decent person would consider doing. I do think it's important to note that I believe she is no more "responsible" for these attacks, than anyone else there, except the bomber.

It's a nice thing to do, but calling her a hero is WAY over the top.

Definitely does not fit my definition of hero either. Thats way over the top.

That said, this is very decent of her. I'm sure she is suffering a lot of pain because of this bombing at her concert. It can't be very nice to be in her shoes at the moment and I am sure she is suffering because of it.

My definition of heroism is one of character. What you guys are talking about is circumstance. Many people with heroic character are never put to the test because they never find themselves in such a situation, but if they did, they would respond heroically because that is in their character. Just because someone who would behave in an heroic fashion if the need arose, but never has the opportunity to do so, does not make them any less heroic. I think Ariana's gesture is indicative of heroic character and, if she was put to the test, she would respond heroically. You don't have to bash down doors with an automatic weapon or perform emergency surgery in the street to be heroic.

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#1789109 27-May-2017 12:55

surfisup1000:

Plenty of reading out there....

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/12/the_myth_of_hillarys_popular_vote_victory.html

Plenty more reading: Here are just the first three headings from a Google Search ‘how popular is trump’:

1. POLL: Trump remains the least-popular president in history ahead of his 100-day milestone

2. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/ (interactive graph showing Trump’s disapproval rating steadily climbing while approval drops; the graph ends at day 127 with disapproval 54.6% and approval 39.3%.

3. Trumps new poll numbers are catastrophic

I am not arguing ‘what if?’. Of course Trump won the election. But that does not make him a winner. He is well on his way to becoming the most unpopular president in history, if he even makes it to the end of his term.

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#1790549 28-May-2017 10:50

Can we keep the Trump debate in its own thread please?

networkn

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#1790601 28-May-2017 12:43

Rikkitic:

Wiggum:

networkn:

We have different ideas on the threshold of a hero I think. This is what any decent person would consider doing. I do think it's important to note that I believe she is no more "responsible" for these attacks, than anyone else there, except the bomber.

It's a nice thing to do, but calling her a hero is WAY over the top.

Definitely does not fit my definition of hero either. Thats way over the top.

That said, this is very decent of her. I'm sure she is suffering a lot of pain because of this bombing at her concert. It can't be very nice to be in her shoes at the moment and I am sure she is suffering because of it.

My definition of heroism is one of character. What you guys are talking about is circumstance. Many people with heroic character are never put to the test because they never find themselves in such a situation, but if they did, they would respond heroically because that is in their character. Just because someone who would behave in an heroic fashion if the need arose, but never has the opportunity to do so, does not make them any less heroic. I think Ariana's gesture is indicative of heroic character and, if she was put to the test, she would respond heroically. You don't have to bash down doors with an automatic weapon or perform emergency surgery in the street to be heroic.

Character should be determined by actions. I don't consider her actions meet the threshold or anywhere near. I am honestly surprised you think it does. You giving out a hero award for something like this is akin to participation medals at school.

gzt

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#1790604 28-May-2017 13:04

Anyway, it's great that she's doing it. No doubt there were significant changes required to her plans for the year. It's a massive commitment for all the right reasons.

Rikkitic

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#1790649 28-May-2017 14:44

networkn:

Character should be determined by actions. I don't consider her actions meet the threshold or anywhere near. I am honestly surprised you think it does. You giving out a hero award for something like this is akin to participation medals at school.

I don't understand why you have such a problem with me calling her a hero. I think she is, but of course you are entitled, as always, to your own opinion on the matter.

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