Christopher Luxon, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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Mad Scientist
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#3165780 29-Nov-2023 16:14

sir1963:

Just look at Musk... bought twitter for 44 Billion, now it's worth less than 1/2 that and still falling. Its still falling because it does not generate enough income to justify it price nor cover its costs. This is why so many businesses go broke, they do not have the cash flow to pay the bills.

he bought X to have control over social media not to make money.

the pen is mightier than the sword, something something something.

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#3165784 29-Nov-2023 16:17

ockel:

tdgeek:

Yep. Although to counteract part of that, and not as a disagreement, as the nominal revenue grows, does the nominal expenditure grow as well? It must do, otherwise we would have a treasure chest of year on year unspent surpluses. So... are we getting value? From 2001 to 2022 the same question arises. Putting waste aside for the moment, we have budgets with generally some surplus which we generally earmark to do stuff with. Most of the revenue is baked in. Govt wages, costs, benefit payments and so on. All of these increase, sometimes a great deal more when eventually after years of whining, teachers and healthcare get a big pay jump (although they are still in the negative, same theme as infrequent tax threashold adjustments) Given that we are always asking for more help for some sectors there "shouldn't" be a lot of slack. Waste. Thats an easy word, what is waste? An extra 15000 govt employees we didn't have in 2017? Possibly. They must be doing something 40 hours a week. Starting a policy and it fails, yes that's wastage. One would hope that with GR's 4B Govt spending savings, and Luxons extra 6.5% and ACT's taking the employee reduction to 15000 there should be a lot of benefit there, waste wise. No doubt Govt wastage has always been a thing as there isnt the accountability that a CEO needs to give to the Board of Directors and shareholders

We dont have budgets with generally some surplus which we generally earmark to do stuff with. We havent had a surplus since pre-covid. We're not expecting one until at least 2027 (according to the PREFU). The Covid spending (like the ChCh earthquake) was supposed to be temporary. Seven years is not temporary , thats addicition.

Since 2013 total govt revenue has grown at a CAGR of 5.74% (and tax revenue at 7%). Nominal GDP has grown at 5.67% (slower than total revenue and tax revenue). Spending has grown at 5.91%. It continues to grown faster than revenue which is not a good sign.

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#3165805 29-Nov-2023 16:47

SaltyNZ:

sir1963:

Just look at Musk... bought twitter for 44 Billion, now it's worth less than 1/2 that and still falling. Its still falling because it does not generate enough income to justify it price nor cover its costs. This is why so many businesses go broke, they do not have the cash flow to pay the bills.

... Should I send him a food parcel?

Musk did value Twitter at 44 Billion himself, its his own valuation.

The ones that sold it to him.

Well they can attest that their capital gain was real and has allowed them a nice lifestyle.
Its their earnings for growing and developing the company.
So yes Capital Gain is real income :-)

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#3165807 29-Nov-2023 16:52

ezbee:

Musk did value Twitter at 44 Billion himself, its his own valuation.

The ones that sold it to him.

Well they can attest that their capital gain was real and has allowed them a nice lifestyle.
Its their earnings for growing and developing the company.
So yes Capital Gain is real income :-)

Musk would have been better off if he'd simply given me $10B. He'd have more money, and fewer people would be calling him names.

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#3165810 29-Nov-2023 17:15

sir1963:

freitasm:

This is the old "trickle down" argument.

It doesn't work.

The wealthy pay rich boatyard owners for the boats. The rich boatyard owners pay peanuts to the employees.

The alternative is worse.

So you think that paying peanuts to employees, peanuts that are taxed before the money even hit the account is better than what?

Are you implying if the rich boatyard owners didn't peanuts the alternative would be no job at all?

It never occurred to you that those same wealthy people and rich boatyard owners could do their part and pay taxes on things they skip today because they can play the rules that are stacked on their favour?

So your view of the world is that a poor person should be paid peanuts, pay taxes at the moment the income is reported, and pay for things at the pharmacy, while the wealthy benefit from all the things the government pay using the tax money collected from the poor?

Right...

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#3165812 29-Nov-2023 17:21

sir1963:

SaltyNZ:

sir1963:

Just look at Musk... bought twitter for 44 Billion, now it's worth less than 1/2 that and still falling. Its still falling because it does not generate enough income to justify it price nor cover its costs. This is why so many businesses go broke, they do not have the cash flow to pay the bills.

... Should I send him a food parcel?

Probably.

Elon Musk squandered X/Twitter/name of the week by acting like a racist little piece of shit harbouring racist little piece of shit people and scaring away users and advertisers that rather not see that kind of racist shit in front of them.

Elon Musk was just acting his own alt-right person.

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#3165831 29-Nov-2023 17:38

freitasm:

So you think that paying peanuts to employees, peanuts that are taxed before the money even hit the account is better than what?

Are you implying if the rich boatyard owners didn't peanuts the alternative would be no job at all?

It never occurred to you that those same wealthy people and rich boatyard owners could do their part and pay taxes on things they skip today because they can play the rules that are stacked on their favour?

So your view of the world is that a poor person should be paid peanuts, pay taxes at the moment the income is reported, and pay for things at the pharmacy, while the wealthy benefit from all the things the government pay using the tax money collected from the poor?

Right...

Everybody's wage is taxed before they see it, does not matter who you are, that is the whole point of PAYE.

No idea if boat yards owners are rich or not. I do know that quality tooling, especially stuff for industrial use is expensive, even more so if you go down the CNC route. I would also suspect that those building superyatchts pay their staff a higher wage because the job is far more exacting, particularly for the fit out.

I did just see this advert on seek.

But as you say, those yachts would be better off being done elsewhere. Never mind the financial impact on multiple down stream businesses .

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#3165846 29-Nov-2023 17:53

sir1963:

But as you say, those yachts would be better off being done elsewhere. Never mind the financial impact on multiple down stream businesses .

I did not say that, anywhere.

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#3165849 29-Nov-2023 17:59

freitasm:

sir1963:

But as you say, those yachts would be better off being done elsewhere. Never mind the financial impact on multiple down stream businesses .

I did not say that, anywhere.

THAT is the worse alternative.

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#3165921 29-Nov-2023 18:56

sir1963:

THAT is the worse alternative.

Actually it looks like a fabricated strawman argument, but you do you.

sir1963

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#3165926 29-Nov-2023 19:14

Kyanar:

sir1963:

THAT is the worse alternative.

Actually it looks like a fabricated strawman argument, but you do you.

Oh ?

Why ?
Why would someone who has options chose to do business with a country who wants to punish them financially ?

Seen Venezuela lately, should be incredibly wealthy, its a basket case because on political policies, and that meant investment disappeared

I have friends and family who are now Australian citizens because the choice was far better for them and their families.

You want to tax them heavily, they will simply go elsewhere.

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#3165930 29-Nov-2023 19:24

sir1963:

Oh ?

Why ?
Why would someone who has options chose to do business with a country who wants to punish them financially ?

Seen Venezuela lately, should be incredibly wealthy, its a basket case because on political policies, and that meant investment disappeared

I have friends and family who are now Australian citizens because the choice was far better for them and their families.

You want to tax them heavily, they will simply go elsewhere.

You seem to think it's fine that the lowest paid workers pay their fair share of tax as they earn it, but it's unacceptable that wealthy business owners be held to the same standard. That wealthy business owners can use pre-tax income to buy a fancy new "company" car every couple of years, but the lowest paid have to pay for it out of their after tax income.

Noone's even arguing for "taxing them heavily", the argument is about taxing them fairly. Look at Australia, where the ATO publishes a list of what the largest companies in the country pay in tax - guess for how many the answer is "zero". Here's a hint: it's a lot. And these are not poor companies, or making losses.

And unsurprisingly, the owners/CEOs of those companies aren't paying much either.

I imagine if the IRD did the same in New Zealand, the result would be similar.

That is why your post is just a strawman argument in bad faith.

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#3165931 29-Nov-2023 19:25

Christopher Luxon refuses to pull Winston Peters into line over anti-media comments, laughs it off

ROTFLMAO, Luxon has demoted himself to deputy prime minister, he has let Winston take charge.

As I said earlier, Luxon wanted to be prime minister (ego) but did not want to BE prime minister (actual job, the hard bit)

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#3165933 29-Nov-2023 19:28

Kyanar:

sir1963:

Oh ?

Why ?
Why would someone who has options chose to do business with a country who wants to punish them financially ?

Seen Venezuela lately, should be incredibly wealthy, its a basket case because on political policies, and that meant investment disappeared

I have friends and family who are now Australian citizens because the choice was far better for them and their families.

You want to tax them heavily, they will simply go elsewhere.

You seem to think it's fine that the lowest paid workers pay their fair share of tax as they earn it, but it's unacceptable that wealthy business owners be held to the same standard. That wealthy business owners can use pre-tax income to buy a fancy new "company" car every couple of years, but the lowest paid have to pay for it out of their after tax income.

Noone's even arguing for "taxing them heavily", the argument is about taxing them fairly. Look at Australia, where the ATO publishes a list of what the largest companies in the country pay in tax - guess for how many the answer is "zero". Here's a hint: it's a lot. And these are not poor companies, or making losses.

And unsurprisingly, the owners/CEOs of those companies aren't paying much either.

I imagine if the IRD did the same in New Zealand, the result would be similar.

That is why your post is just a strawman argument in bad faith.

Where did I say that.

The LIE is that if you include imaginary taxes as being unpaid then the wealthy do not pay much tax. However in truth the top 10 income earners pay 80% of nZs entire income tax.

People ARE arguing for taxing them heavily, someone even suggest by fiat taking 1/2 their wealth.

Realestate agents also love their new cars, so do farmers, tradies also right off their vehicles tax wise, even claim the GST back on it.

The "pre-tax" claim is incorrect, they can buy the car as a business asset BUT can only claim the depreciation, ie 20% for the 1st year and about 15% each year after that. To use it as a personal vehicle means they have to pay "perk Tax", a new BMW has a higher perk tax than does a Honda Civic. If it gets sold for more than its book value then they pay tax on that profit. With business tax being 28%, on a $100,000 car they would claim $20,000 but that would only reduce their tax by $5600 in the first year. You would also need to show that the car is a business requirement. For example a landlord who owns 1 property can not justify a "work vehicle", but one who owns multiple properties could be able to, however the perk tax would make that moot in most cases.

Tradies also write off about 5% of their personal house expenses, internet, phone, power, rates, insurance, mortgage interest costs, tools, computer, etc etc etc. They also claim the GST on petrol and then claim 28% of what's left off their taxes.

NOW you are getting into international tax laws for companies, that is straying from individuals. Interestingly enough though is that countries are wary of putting in big tax hikes in the fear that these companies would leave the country. In one case Ireland was breaking EU tax laws to attract "head offices" into Ireland because they figured 10% of something was a lot better than 100% of nothing. THAT ended up in court cases.

But certainly international tax laws need tightening so businesses are not able to play one country off for another, and "tax havens" like Bermuda need pulling into line, for example no income going to Bermuda is tax deductible and could even see an additional 0.5% of gross funds transferred taxed. The ability to say 90% of the money is "licensing" also need to be quashed.

We also have in NZ tax laws that say if your companies profits in say Australia are taxed in Australia you get imputation credits so you only need to pay the difference between what was paid in Australia and what would have been paid if it had all be taxed in NZ. However I believe if you set up an Australian owned company (ie is a tax resident of Australia) and all the profits stay in Australia then NZ does not get any of the taxes.

Lots of companies pay some staff in shares that can not be resold for say 10 years. IIRC my shares in Skycity were at one stage paid (my choice) in shares, however that was still considered payment and taxed. However on the wage portion paid to CEOs etc they pay income tax on that income.

Countries regularly give good tax breaks to large companies because they know the employment generated and flow on economic benefits more than makes up for it. The USA has states who regularly make billion dollar offers for say Amazon to have a fulfilment centre in their state. The USA has huge subsidies for cropping farmers , put billions into R&D, subsidies for power generation etc etc etc.

The likes of Amazon and other online retailers have significantly damaged retail in SanFrancisco , with covid people got used to shopping online and large chunks of SF retail space are now empty and they are even talking about pulling it down for use for housing instead. Detroit suffered also when the auto industry changed manufacturing to other places, ie lots of parts are now made in Mexico and Asia.

I buy a lot of stuff from China and Australia (Amazon) because it is cheaper and gets delivered far faster than NZ companies can even with shipping and get added. The profits however remain overseas, and no one in NZ was employed in business in NZ to sell those products.

For example I bought some metal decorative floor registers (grills over floor vents) for less than 1/2 the price I could have nought them in NZ, they were only $4 more expensive than cheap plastic ones here in NZ.

Wealthy people are just the same, they buy more expensive stuff, but they STILL shop for the best value

Apple is even slowly working to divest its reliance on China for manufacturing, they have plants in Taiwan, India, Brazil, because China is now seen as a risk.

So yes, if you enact punitive policies tax wise then companies and people will react in ways you will not like.

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#3165934 29-Nov-2023 19:32

sir1963:

I have friends and family who are now Australian citizens because the choice was far better for them and their families.

As long as we're doing anecdata, I'm Australian and moved here over 20 years ago. I have no intention of going back. What's stopping you, if it's so much better over there?

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