Metiria Turei's confessed benefit fraud

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Awrrr
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#1843729 10-Aug-2017 19:06

Sorry, no pictures handy though I'm sure there are plenty. The issues with the lake and river are well-known and well-documented, and they are not the only ones.

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#1843757 10-Aug-2017 20:01

As a child growing up in Southland I recall swimming regularly in the Oreti and Mataura Rivers and then discovering sheep and cattle carcasses. So not sure a lot has changed other than the media honing in on bad spots.

No one is disagreeing that we do need to start fencing off our rivers and balancing intensive farming with other actions. It would be interesting to see the phosphate usage over the years. I suspect the massive land development programs that happened in the years after the war there was massive amounts of phospates dumped on our pastures.

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#1843768 10-Aug-2017 20:35

networkn:

Maybe post some pictures? I am not disputing your account, but I'd like to see some every day peoples photos of the areas of the waterways that are polluted (Yes I can google it, but I want to know what real Kiwi's are seeing every day).

I can honestly say in the last 3 years I have been to a number of water heavy areas and I can't recall seeing anything I wouldn't swim in (though I accept not everything bad can be seen with the naked eye).

Again, not disputing there is water pollution.

Err way OT now.. But here's a nice picture of the Kaeo River beside SH10 in Northland. It cascades, crystal clear, out of the forest 10km upstream.

It's on the NRC's Fencing stock out of waterways page.
But drive up highway 10 from Pakaraka to Awanui and you'll have plenty of opportunity to take your own photos of stock wallowing in our streams, rivers and estuaries.

Labour's included 'Clean rivers' in their Electoral Policies this election. They're going to fund Regional Councils like the NRC with taxes and royalties on some water use.
If they're elected they're also going to use people on the dole to fence farm waterways and plant riparian areas, in their 'Ready for Work' policy.

I can't say if that's going to work very well, I'll be disappointed if it's a way to move people temporarily off the dole & fudge the numbers.

But the 'Clean Rivers' thing was a core Green policy, one of the ones that made enough sense to be snapped up by other parties.
It's one of those issues, that - like pay equality, gay marriage, bike lanes, marine reserves - used to be associated with the looney left, but have become mainstream.
They've outdone themselves in normalising their causes to the point they're accepted centre left ideas. And they need to move further left to stand out.

There's risk in going too far.. Metiria.. but it does bring public attention to issues we'd rather ignore.

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#1844814 10-Aug-2017 22:12

networkn:

Rikkitic:

Some people are so blind in their prejudices that nothing is going to change their mind and I don't think there is much point in trying. Turei is down, so put the boot in and keep kicking. I live in an area that is full of ruined rivers and lakes but why should I bother pointing that out to someone who's mind is already so clearly made up?

Maybe post some pictures? I am not disputing your account, but I'd like to see some every day peoples photos of the areas of the waterways that are polluted (Yes I can google it, but I want to know what real Kiwi's are seeing every day).

I can honestly say in the last 3 years I have been to a number of water heavy areas and I can't recall seeing anything I wouldn't swim in (though I accept not everything bad can be seen with the naked eye).

Again, not disputing there is water pollution.

From what I am aware of, it isn't that every waterway looks like Lake Ellesmere. But a waterway that may look ok is dodgy due to farm waste, farm chemicals, manufacturer chemicals, effluent from freezing works. Waterways, aka rivers are runoffs from rain. The seepage from human use also is runoff. Not every lake or river looks toxic, but the non obvious ones that look fine, are often not fine. Rain, chemicals all go the same route, whether that be direct runoff, or leeching.

networkn

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#1844821 10-Aug-2017 22:21

tdgeek:

From what I am aware of, it isn't that every waterway looks like Lake Ellesmere. But a waterway that may look ok is dodgy due to farm waste, farm chemicals, manufacturer chemicals, effluent from freezing works. Waterways, aka rivers are runoffs from rain. The seepage from human use also is runoff. Not every lake or river looks toxic, but the non obvious ones that look fine, are often not fine. Rain, chemicals all go the same route, whether that be direct runoff, or leeching.

Animals have been crapping in waterways for longer than we have been dumping chemicals. I can't recall ever getting sick as a kid from being in waterways (We used to spend a LOT of time in summer in creeks and the drains around our farms. Maybe I was just INCREDIBLY lucky!

I do understand Chemicals are also a *major* contributing factor.

I think we do need to do something, no question, but not sure what Labour is proposing is quite right. I am not expert in this area however, but I do wonder where Labours information came from. There is certainly no shortage of fear mongerers who would have you believe that one cow crapping in a river will kill us all.

Rikkitic

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#1844824 10-Aug-2017 22:36

Also no expert but my understanding is that it has at least partially to do with simple numbers. When you were a kid there were a lot fewer cows to pollute the water, thus probably lower risk swimming in it. National seems (if I understand correctly) to think that the answer to everything is just much more of the same and as a result dairying has been massively intensified, with all the problems that go with that.

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#1844825 10-Aug-2017 22:37

networkn:

tdgeek:

From what I am aware of, it isn't that every waterway looks like Lake Ellesmere. But a waterway that may look ok is dodgy due to farm waste, farm chemicals, manufacturer chemicals, effluent from freezing works. Waterways, aka rivers are runoffs from rain. The seepage from human use also is runoff. Not every lake or river looks toxic, but the non obvious ones that look fine, are often not fine. Rain, chemicals all go the same route, whether that be direct runoff, or leeching.

Animals have been crapping in waterways for longer than we have been dumping chemicals. I can't recall ever getting sick as a kid from being in waterways (We used to spend a LOT of time in summer in creeks and the drains around our farms. Maybe I was just INCREDIBLY lucky!

I do understand Chemicals are also a *major* contributing factor.

I think we do need to do something, no question, but not sure what Labour is proposing is quite right. I am not expert in this area however, but I do wonder where Labours information came from. There is certainly no shortage of fear mongerers who would have you believe that one cow crapping in a river will kill us all.

I have no idea where you got that from.

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#1844826 10-Aug-2017 22:39

networkn:

I think we do need to do something, no question, but not sure what Labour is proposing is quite right. I am not expert in this area however, but I do wonder where Labours information came from. There is certainly no shortage of fear mongerers who would have you believe that one cow crapping in a river will kill us all.

The Labour party got their information from the New Zealand government, the OECD and NIWA, among other sources. National agrees that it is a problem but it appears that they would rather let it get out of control before doing anything meaningful. This has been fairly typical of them with other issues like housing.

One of their core constituencies is farmers of course.....

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/325183/govt-plans-to-make-90-percent-of-nz-waterways-swimmable-by-2040

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/90613205/farming-emissions-and-waste-putting-nzs-green-reputation-at-risk-oecd-says

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/91956116/Serious-pressures-facing-rivers-Government-report-finds

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11846084

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#1844829 10-Aug-2017 22:45

Rikkitic:

Also no expert but my understanding is that it has at least partially to do with simple numbers. When you were a kid there were a lot fewer cows to pollute the water, thus probably lower risk swimming in it. National seems (if I understand correctly) to think that the answer to everything is just much more of the same and as a result dairying has been massively intensified, with all the problems that go with that.

I don't think you understand correctly. National has a water ways regeneration plan, but like any plan, you can find an "expert" who will say it's not the right way and plenty of people who will say that unless you repair it to 100% tomorrow, it's not enough.

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#1844831 10-Aug-2017 22:45

networkn:

tdgeek:

From what I am aware of, it isn't that every waterway looks like Lake Ellesmere. But a waterway that may look ok is dodgy due to farm waste, farm chemicals, manufacturer chemicals, effluent from freezing works. Waterways, aka rivers are runoffs from rain. The seepage from human use also is runoff. Not every lake or river looks toxic, but the non obvious ones that look fine, are often not fine. Rain, chemicals all go the same route, whether that be direct runoff, or leeching.

Animals have been crapping in waterways for longer than we have been dumping chemicals. I can't recall ever getting sick as a kid from being in waterways (We used to spend a LOT of time in summer in creeks and the drains around our farms. Maybe I was just INCREDIBLY lucky!

I do understand Chemicals are also a *major* contributing factor.

I think we do need to do something, no question, but not sure what Labour is proposing is quite right. I am not expert in this area however, but I do wonder where Labours information came from. There is certainly no shortage of fear mongerers who would have you believe that one cow crapping in a river will kill us all.

Its not Labours information. Its standard knowledge. I come from a farm. Tordon, Super, big deal. These days farming is intensive, irrigation is intensive, leeching is now a big deal. Its way past grow grass, cows crap. It is very intensive. Take a vege garden. Manage that intensively, and capture the leeching. That all flows into the soll and into rivers, and into aquifers. It has to drain somewhere, and it does.

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#1844834 10-Aug-2017 22:53

networkn:

Rikkitic:

Also no expert but my understanding is that it has at least partially to do with simple numbers. When you were a kid there were a lot fewer cows to pollute the water, thus probably lower risk swimming in it. National seems (if I understand correctly) to think that the answer to everything is just much more of the same and as a result dairying has been massively intensified, with all the problems that go with that.

I don't think you understand correctly. National has a water ways regeneration plan, but like any plan, you can find an "expert" who will say it's not the right way and plenty of people who will say that unless you repair it to 100% tomorrow, it's not enough.

I hate this Politics forum!

There is a clear divide between Nats and Labs. And we get corresponding arguments. (Not picking on you). The ironic thing is we ALL want whats best. But we all want our party to govern.

Oh well, at least we arent in the US, these discussions are almost forbidden there. And on that note, I believe that our most "noteworthy" poster in this Politics

forum is American.

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#1844839 10-Aug-2017 22:58

tdgeek:

I hate this Politics forum!

And yet you are one of it's most active contributors! :)

There is a clear divide between Nats and Labs. And we get corresponding arguments. (Not picking on you). The ironic thing is we ALL want whats best. But we all want our party to govern.

Oh well, at least we arent in the US, these discussions are almost forbidden there. And on that note, I believe that our most "noteworthy" poster in this Politics

forum is American.

To be fair most "Labour" supporters didn't support Labour 3 weeks ago.

I am not sure which poster is American.

Not sure what you mean by not allowed to have these discussions in the US, there are THOUSANDS of threads on hundreds of forums in the USA.

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#1844841 10-Aug-2017 22:59

networkn:
Rikkitic:

Also no expert but my understanding is that it has at least partially to do with simple numbers. When you were a kid there were a lot fewer cows to pollute the water, thus probably lower risk swimming in it. National seems (if I understand correctly) to think that the answer to everything is just much more of the same and as a result dairying has been massively intensified, with all the problems that go with that.

I don't think you understand correctly. National has a water ways regeneration plan, but like any plan, you can find an "expert" who will say it's not the right way and plenty of people who will say that unless you repair it to 100% tomorrow, it's not enough.

Nope Rikkitic has it reasonably accurate given what I read on the subject. The government is planning to double primary exports (ie farming) by 2025 and is funding irrigation. This will worsen the nitrate levels in our waterways even further, which have grown at the fastest rate in the OECD between 1998 - 2009. The nitrate comes from urine and fertilizer.

I'm more inclined to believe experts from the OECD than Nick Smith. They say

tdgeek

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#1844903 11-Aug-2017 08:21

networkn:

tdgeek:

I hate this Politics forum!

And yet you are one of it's most active contributors! :)

There is a clear divide between Nats and Labs. And we get corresponding arguments. (Not picking on you). The ironic thing is we ALL want whats best. But we all want our party to govern.

Oh well, at least we arent in the US, these discussions are almost forbidden there. And on that note, I believe that our most "noteworthy" poster in this Politics

forum is American.

To be fair most "Labour" supporters didn't support Labour 3 weeks ago.

I am not sure which poster is American.

Not sure what you mean by not allowed to have these discussions in the US, there are THOUSANDS of threads on hundreds of forums in the USA.

Ah ok, I am on an iPad forum, I raised Trump ages ago, boy did they jump up and down, this was pre election. I gathered that Demo vs Repub over there is a divisive topic. Not for general discussion, although a forum for the purpose is different

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#1844985 11-Aug-2017 09:43

tdgeek:

I hate this Politics forum!

So why do you keep contributing?

tdgeek: Oh well, at least we arent in the US, these discussions are almost forbidden there. And on that note, I believe that our most "noteworthy" poster in this Politics

forum is American.

Really? do spill the beans please. Who on earth is this notorious "American"?

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