Who should I vote for?

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Master Geek
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#1864647 13-Sep-2017 17:45

To show how alike most of the parties actually are my spread in the result card went from 79.7% to 71.0%. (I omit ACT on 55% as the lone wolf there).

Interestingly I voted that the Treaty should be totally ignored to see what would happen but still scored 72% with the Maori Party.

pctek

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#1864665 13-Sep-2017 18:24

Last time I voted for no-one.

Because I didn't like the policies.

That's what it comes down to, the things they will do (or at least say they will). Do you like that idea? Hate that idea?
Thats how I pick, not any polls, quizzes online, who the characters are, just what they will do.

This year things changed so I voted on Monday for my choice.

tdgeek

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#1864700 13-Sep-2017 19:11

GV27:

gulfa:

I have already voted

The NZ debt graph confirmed my position available from many sources

I would also like some to explain to me how we can have a surplus when we have to borrow to get this

If I borrow $100.00 to cover my budget for the term and only spend $99.00 is this giving me a surplus.

Yup. Debt/Assets go on your balance sheet, profit goes on your P&L. They measure different things.

Worth noting that National's plans pay down debt faster than Labour's, but not by much (a couple of years difference in hitting the same target)

Debt under National has grown. Debt under Clarke was heavily paid down, which helped greatly with the GFC, which off course National got us through! There is so much mis information based on bias. Borrowing is fine. You can borrow and benefit from what you created/built. Cutting debt is fine too, conserve spending. Thats Labours way generally. But you need to be wary of delaying spending too much. There is a desire to be financially succesful. But for Government, it is a balance between success and providing for the people, whether that be help or bridges or health, etc. Much the same as us buying a music system or getting new guttering. One is a better choice, one is a nicer choice.

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#1864701 13-Sep-2017 19:14

Rikkitic:

Wiggum:

Rikkitic:

I have already decided I will vote Greens this year when I get around to it. I can't think of anything that could happen that will change my mind on that.

From the look of things, any vote for the Greens looks very likely to be a wasted vote. National loves wasted votes. IMO sometimes its better to use your vote wisely against something you really don't support. If you against National then there is only one place to put your vote and I'm sure you don't need my help at working out who that is.

Just my 2 cents, and thats just based on my opinion that the Greens will not be making 5% this year.

I find many of your opinions rather uninformed. Apart from that, I believe that the Green voice in NZ politics is more important than your obsession with Muteria Turei's actions. We need the Greens to keep the others from going too far off course and there are some very good Green MPs who would be missed in Parliament. The Greens uphold policies and principles that are important to the future welfare of this country. I think it would be a tragedy for New Zealand politics if they did disappear. I am voting for them because of something I believe in, not because of some cynical desire to manipulate the election result. I could care less what National thinks. I don't let what National thinks dictate my decision-making.

Having said that, I don't think all National policies are bad just because they come from National. There are some things I do support and have supported in the past. But National has had nine years to fix whatever it is going to fix and the country is in a mess if you use any kind of social welfare standard to measure it. I do not want more of the same of this. National has had its chance. It is time to let someone else have a go.

I hope Labour wins and I hope the Greens survive. If this turns out to not be the case, I will accept it and move on. Jacinda Ardern is certainly no Donald Trump, but neither is Bill English. The great thing about this country is that neither choice will lead us to doom. I think National has the wrong priorities and I think Labour has the better - certainly more hopeful - vision, but either way we will do okay. I am just so grateful that I live in a real democracy. Whoever wins I will be drinking a toast to that and adding my congratulations.

Good post. I bolded what I liked the most.

frednz

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#1864733 13-Sep-2017 20:21

GV27:

Agreed, I would never vote for them, but Parliament would be poorer for not having the Greens there in some capacity.

It seems like Labour has taken on board a lot of the climate change policies that the Greens have been talking about, so if the Greens get less than 5%, at least the two major parties now have pretty good climate change policies.

To vote for the Greens, is in effect, a vote for Labour, so you need to be very happy with Labour's new tax policies etc. And you also face the prospect of a wasted vote if the Greens don't get back into Parliament.

To vote for NZ First, you have to be happy about the policies of both Labour and National, because Winston could go with either of them. A pity Winston won't say in advance which of the major parties he prefers. If you don't like the idea of Winston being Deputy Prime Minister and having a long list of "bottom lines", then just vote for either National or Labour.

If you don't like the policies of National, it makes sense to me to vote Labour rather than the Greens or NZ First.

Similarly, if you don't like the policies of Labour, vote National rather than the Greens or NZ First.

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#1864834 13-Sep-2017 22:54

This talk of a ‘wasted vote’ makes me wonder what is the point of having more than two parties?

Surely the only vote ‘wasted’ is the one not cast? I can see why so many people don’t vote when their seem to be so few differences between the main parties, and they’re told over and over that any other vote IS a ‘waste’... I wonder if it was law that you MUST vote, and a digital system (leaving out “the Russians” for the minute!) ensured their were no ‘spoilled’ Votes who would actually get in, and how many of the ‘lesser’ parties might actually become something like “Winston the Kingmaker” if people were not so caught up in caring _against_ and felt purposeful voting FOR the most closely aligned party instead...?

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#1864839 13-Sep-2017 23:08

PhantomNVD: This talk of a ‘wasted vote’ makes me wonder what is the point of having more than two parties?

Surely the only vote ‘wasted’ is the one not cast? I can see why so many people don’t vote when their seem to be so few differences between the main parties, and they’re told over and over that any other vote IS a ‘waste’... I wonder if it was law that you MUST vote, and a digital system (leaving out “the Russians” for the minute!) ensured their were no ‘spoilled’ Votes who would actually get in, and how many of the ‘lesser’ parties might actually become something like “Winston the Kingmaker” if people were not so caught up in caring _against_ and felt purposeful voting FOR the most closely aligned party instead...?

Wondered the same thing myself.

It sounds nice but it has a tiny flaw, in a democratic system its undemocratic to force people to vote. The whole point of democracy is freedom, which also means the freedom to choose not to vote!

Geektastic

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#1864858 13-Sep-2017 23:46

PhantomNVD: This talk of a ‘wasted vote’ makes me wonder what is the point of having more than two parties?

Surely the only vote ‘wasted’ is the one not cast? I can see why so many people don’t vote when their seem to be so few differences between the main parties, and they’re told over and over that any other vote IS a ‘waste’... I wonder if it was law that you MUST vote, and a digital system (leaving out “the Russians” for the minute!) ensured their were no ‘spoilled’ Votes who would actually get in, and how many of the ‘lesser’ parties might actually become something like “Winston the Kingmaker” if people were not so caught up in caring _against_ and felt purposeful voting FOR the most closely aligned party instead...?

The problem is you can't really run a country by committee. I know New Zealand is obsessed with 'consulting' Uncle Tom Cobbeley and all, but really all it does is effect delay and minor alteration at best in most cases.

If I thought National would cruise the election, I might (although probably would not) vote elsewhere for my Party vote. However, since I would never want to feel I had in any way contributed to another outcome, I won't in this case because it's too tight.

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#1864919 14-Sep-2017 08:50

Geektastic:

PhantomNVD: This talk of a ‘wasted vote’ makes me wonder what is the point of having more than two parties?

Surely the only vote ‘wasted’ is the one not cast? I can see why so many people don’t vote when their seem to be so few differences between the main parties, and they’re told over and over that any other vote IS a ‘waste’... I wonder if it was law that you MUST vote, and a digital system (leaving out “the Russians” for the minute!) ensured their were no ‘spoilled’ Votes who would actually get in, and how many of the ‘lesser’ parties might actually become something like “Winston the Kingmaker” if people were not so caught up in caring _against_ and felt purposeful voting FOR the most closely aligned party instead...?

The problem is you can't really run a country by committee. I know New Zealand is obsessed with 'consulting' Uncle Tom Cobbeley and all, but really all it does is effect delay and minor alteration at best in most cases.

If I thought National would cruise the election, I might (although probably would not) vote elsewhere for my Party vote. However, since I would never want to feel I had in any way contributed to another outcome, I won't in this case because it's too tight.

That is how most of the Western Democracies are run mostly inhertted from the United Kingdom.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Geektastic

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#1864937 14-Sep-2017 08:56

MikeB4:

Geektastic:

PhantomNVD: This talk of a ‘wasted vote’ makes me wonder what is the point of having more than two parties?

Surely the only vote ‘wasted’ is the one not cast? I can see why so many people don’t vote when their seem to be so few differences between the main parties, and they’re told over and over that any other vote IS a ‘waste’... I wonder if it was law that you MUST vote, and a digital system (leaving out “the Russians” for the minute!) ensured their were no ‘spoilled’ Votes who would actually get in, and how many of the ‘lesser’ parties might actually become something like “Winston the Kingmaker” if people were not so caught up in caring _against_ and felt purposeful voting FOR the most closely aligned party instead...?

The problem is you can't really run a country by committee. I know New Zealand is obsessed with 'consulting' Uncle Tom Cobbeley and all, but really all it does is effect delay and minor alteration at best in most cases.

If I thought National would cruise the election, I might (although probably would not) vote elsewhere for my Party vote. However, since I would never want to feel I had in any way contributed to another outcome, I won't in this case because it's too tight.

That is how most of the Western Democracies are run mostly inhertted from the United Kingdom.

How else could you run one? The reason most of them are run like that is because (a) it generally works and (b) no one has really come up with a better system.

Benign dictatorship would be the best system for getting things done but so far there isn't a way to achieve that in the long term.

pom532

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Master Geek
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#1864942 14-Sep-2017 09:00

frednz:

GV27:

Agreed, I would never vote for them, but Parliament would be poorer for not having the Greens there in some capacity.

It seems like Labour has taken on board a lot of the climate change policies that the Greens have been talking about, so if the Greens get less than 5%, at least the two major parties now have pretty good climate change policies.

To vote for the Greens, is in effect, a vote for Labour, so you need to be very happy with Labour's new tax policies etc. And you also face the prospect of a wasted vote if the Greens don't get back into Parliament.

To vote for NZ First, you have to be happy about the policies of both Labour and National, because Winston could go with either of them. A pity Winston won't say in advance which of the major parties he prefers. If you don't like the idea of Winston being Deputy Prime Minister and having a long list of "bottom lines", then just vote for either National or Labour.

If you don't like the policies of National, it makes sense to me to vote Labour rather than the Greens or NZ First.

Similarly, if you don't like the policies of Labour, vote National rather than the Greens or NZ First.

If someone is a NZF supporter, why should they care which party Winston supports? Surely it's in the best interest for a minor party to try and get the best deal from either 'major' party?

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frednz

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#1866347 14-Sep-2017 16:27

pom532:

frednz:

GV27:

Agreed, I would never vote for them, but Parliament would be poorer for not having the Greens there in some capacity.

It seems like Labour has taken on board a lot of the climate change policies that the Greens have been talking about, so if the Greens get less than 5%, at least the two major parties now have pretty good climate change policies.

To vote for the Greens, is in effect, a vote for Labour, so you need to be very happy with Labour's new tax policies etc. And you also face the prospect of a wasted vote if the Greens don't get back into Parliament.

To vote for NZ First, you have to be happy about the policies of both Labour and National, because Winston could go with either of them. A pity Winston won't say in advance which of the major parties he prefers. If you don't like the idea of Winston being Deputy Prime Minister and having a long list of "bottom lines", then just vote for either National or Labour.

If you don't like the policies of National, it makes sense to me to vote Labour rather than the Greens or NZ First.

Similarly, if you don't like the policies of Labour, vote National rather than the Greens or NZ First.

If someone is a NZF supporter, why should they care which party Winston supports? Surely it's in the best interest for a minor party to try and get the best deal from either 'major' party?

Fair point, but perhaps a bit narrowly focused. If I decide to vote for a minor party, I wouldn't vote for the Greens if I don't like the policies of the Labour Party because these are going to result in me paying more tax!

Similarly, I wouldn't vote for NZ First if it's possible that they may go into coalition with Labour and result in my tax payments increasing when compared to what I would pay under a National Government.

But I might be happy to vote for Act because I know they are most unlikely to go into coalition with Labour and almost certain to go with National.

But, because NZ First (and TOP) won't say which major party they prefer, I wouldn't vote for either of these!

JayADee

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#1866640 15-Sep-2017 08:19

Sounds like these packhouse workers know who Not to vote for.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96858892/national-feels-the-squeeze-from-lowpaid-packhouse-staff

tdgeek

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#1866642 15-Sep-2017 08:29

I thought Robertson was better than Joyce in last nights Stuff debate, I was quite impressed. Joyce does what must be the National tactic of interjecting and insulting comments repeatedly. A sign of weakness. The leaders debates were the same. When wrong, nod, smile, BE did that really well! Joyce though didnt do that, he kept just interjecting and disagreeing with no reasons.

Geektastic

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#1866643 15-Sep-2017 08:30

JayADee: Sounds like these packhouse workers know who Not to vote for.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96858892/national-feels-the-squeeze-from-lowpaid-packhouse-staff

Wow. People who do low paid and/or seasonal work on minimum wage find it hard to live on the earnings. Who knew?

I'm not sure minimum wage employment is actually supposed to be a lifestyle choice.

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