Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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#2036430 14-Jun-2018 11:03

Unbelievable.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/06/patrick-gower-wants-the-old-kelvin-davis-back.html

"Only in New Zealand would a deputy leader of a governing party come on after a major policy announcement in his or her portfolio and say, 'You know me - I get nervous and I forget things.' I've never seen that before."

MikeAqua

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#2036443 14-Jun-2018 11:23

Some interesting observations from the last 24 hours: -

Greens campaigned on a crackdown on water bottlers. A Greens minister just approved (an an inward foreign investment) a large water bottling plant.

Labour (including Davis) vocally opposed double-bunking prison cells, criticised National for that policy. Labour (Davis) just approved a new prison extension that feature double bunked cells.

Mike

networkn

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#2036446 14-Jun-2018 11:28

MikeAqua:

Some interesting observations from the last 24 hours: -

Greens campaigned on a crackdown on water bottlers. A Greens minister just approved (an an inward foreign investment) a large water bottling plant.

Labour (including Davis) vocally opposed double-bunking prison cells, criticised National for that policy. Labour (Davis) just approved a new prison extension that feature double bunked cells.

Well, I read the Greens campaigned on that water bottler crackdown, but apparently like everything except the weed referendum, it didn't survive negotiations (How could they prioritize weed over water? IMO shows what their real agenda is, and what the real meaning of the green in the "green party means).

Kelvin Davis is probably one of the worst people in NZ politics right now. He isn't exactly setting a great example for young Maori.

networkn

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#2036455 14-Jun-2018 11:40

MikeB4:

We are different to the US scenario in as much as we don't have just two very dominant parties with minor parties failing to get over 5% , we have two parties that tend to split their support given that they generally reside on the same section of the spectrum and they split their support not between themselves but between second tier parties. This results in messy election results. Some say this is the true form of democracy but is it? when parties with just over the threshold dominate the policy decisions in order to ride one of the first tier parties to the treasury benches. If it were true representative democracy the two parties in the last election that formed a coalition should have been Labour and National given that between them they polled 81.3% of the vote.

Despite what people say about our two main parties being centrist, which to a degree is true, I see *daylight* between them on important issues.

Despite what people here might say, I have actually tried reasonably hard to see Labours perspective, as to what drives their policies, but I can't. Everything in my brain just screams NO! Not about EVERY policy though, but their big ones, sometimes just minor but massively important parts of their policies break the policy.

I know others feel the same way in the opposite direction, but with voters pretty evenly split between the left and the right, and not many people ambivalent in the middle, I worry we are very divided as a country. More so than we have been in the past in a lot of ways.

MikeAqua

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#2036466 14-Jun-2018 12:03

networkn:

Well, I read the Greens campaigned on that water bottler crackdown, but apparently like everything except the weed referendum, it didn't survive negotiations (How could they prioritize weed over water? IMO shows what their real agenda is, and what the real meaning of the green in the "green party means).

Kelvin Davis is probably one of the worst people in NZ politics right now. He isn't exactly setting a great example for young Maori.

Labour campaigned on water bottler crackdown too. I think the issue is activist rehotoric vs exercising ministerial powers under legislation. Sage legally had no real choice. Welcome to grown-up-time/reality

Davis I feels sorry for. I think Labour promoted him to DL well beyond his capability to win over the Maori vote.

They have now all but sidelined Davis as part of coalition negotiations and seem to have largely abandoned Maori priorities as well. Closing Northland charter schools and prison double-bunking are two areas where Labour has gone backwards on personal positions held by Davis.

I'm guessing that before the next election labour will replace Davis as DL with an upcoming Maori, female MP. I have zero objection to that per se, but it will complete the using and casting aside of Davis by his own party.

Mike

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#2036470 14-Jun-2018 12:15

@networkn I don't see NZ as overly divided, after all over 80% of those who cared to vote voted for centrist parties. The off centre parties managed circa 14%. The main centrist parties, that is Labour and National could cohabitate effectively with a sensible bit of give and take resulting in a government that the vast majority of New Zealanders would appear to want. The current system where the tail wags the dog is altogether too messy and dishonest.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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networkn

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#2036474 14-Jun-2018 12:22

MikeB4:

@networkn I don't see NZ as overly divided, after all over 80% of those who cared to vote voted for centrist parties. The off centre parties managed circa 14%. The main centrist parties, that is Labour and National could cohabitate effectively with a sensible bit of give and take resulting in a government that the vast majority of New Zealanders would appear to want. The current system where the tail wags the dog is altogether too messy and dishonest.

I am a little surprised you think National and Labour are so close. On their policies at least at the surface they couldn't be further apart. Labour wants to use Public funds to subsidize housing, National wants the market to take care of it. Immigration they are very opposite. Education and Healthcare they probably aren't too far apart in reality, but I am not sure National supports scrubbing NCEA or giving away free tertiary education without at least some checks and balances. National does support a more green future, but not to the degree that National does if I read correctly.

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#2036478 14-Jun-2018 12:39

networkn:

MikeAqua:

Some interesting observations from the last 24 hours: -

Greens campaigned on a crackdown on water bottlers. A Greens minister just approved (an an inward foreign investment) a large water bottling plant.

Labour (including Davis) vocally opposed double-bunking prison cells, criticised National for that policy. Labour (Davis) just approved a new prison extension that feature double bunked cells.

Well, I read the Greens campaigned on that water bottler crackdown, but apparently like everything except the weed referendum, it didn't survive negotiations (How could they prioritize weed over water? IMO shows what their real agenda is, and what the real meaning of the green in the "green party means).

Kelvin Davis is probably one of the worst people in NZ politics right now. He isn't exactly setting a great example for young Maori.

Mike Hosking made a valid point yesterday in the Herald - if all these people want to bottle and sell NZ water, why aren't more NZ companies doing that?!

networkn

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#2036480 14-Jun-2018 12:41

A very smart strategist I met a few years ago said that the next world war, will be fought not over oil, but over water. I think we should be keeping ours here. Problem is, if China wants it, they could come and get it by force and it's more than a little likely no-one could or would stop them.

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#2036482 14-Jun-2018 12:43

networkn:

MikeB4:

We are different to the US scenario in as much as we don't have just two very dominant parties with minor parties failing to get over 5% , we have two parties that tend to split their support given that they generally reside on the same section of the spectrum and they split their support not between themselves but between second tier parties. This results in messy election results. Some say this is the true form of democracy but is it? when parties with just over the threshold dominate the policy decisions in order to ride one of the first tier parties to the treasury benches. If it were true representative democracy the two parties in the last election that formed a coalition should have been Labour and National given that between them they polled 81.3% of the vote.

Despite what people say about our two main parties being centrist, which to a degree is true, I see *daylight* between them on important issues.

Despite what people here might say, I have actually tried reasonably hard to see Labours perspective, as to what drives their policies, but I can't. Everything in my brain just screams NO! Not about EVERY policy though, but their big ones, sometimes just minor but massively important parts of their policies break the policy.

I know others feel the same way in the opposite direction, but with voters pretty evenly split between the left and the right, and not many people ambivalent in the middle, I worry we are very divided as a country. More so than we have been in the past in a lot of ways.

The world is changing. There seems to be an obvious rump in NZ that do not like the changes which are inevitable as technology and ease of travel/communication shrink the world. Remaining in a cozy small town time warp is really no longer possible and it is that which I see as the main reason for the split, with politics simply the public expression of it.

networkn

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#2036483 14-Jun-2018 12:44

Another observation.

Whilst some peoples opinions how badly Labour are bumbling, differ in severity I don't many people think they are doing a "great" job. Most of the issues they have had, have been of their own incompetence, lack of planning or own goals.

I am worried that they haven't really had anything difficult to do yet, in terms of out of the box issues and they aren't exactly setting the world on fire. How will they cope if GFC2 comes along, or another major EQ, or other major world shake up or conflict.

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MikeB4

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#2036494 14-Jun-2018 12:59

networkn:

A very smart strategist I met a few years ago said that the next world war, will be fought not over oil, but over water. I think we should be keeping ours here. Problem is, if China wants it, they could come and get it by force and it's more than a little likely no-one could or would stop them.

Maybe the strategist was referring to too much water as in rising sea levels. This will place huge pressure on useable land and displace millions of people. It will also disrupt food production and transportation. A recipe for conflict.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#2036497 14-Jun-2018 13:01

MikeB4:

networkn:

A very smart strategist I met a few years ago said that the next world war, will be fought not over oil, but over water. I think we should be keeping ours here. Problem is, if China wants it, they could come and get it by force and it's more than a little likely no-one could or would stop them.

Maybe the strategist was referring to too much water as in rising sea levels. This will place huge pressure on useable land and displace millions of people. It will also disrupt food production and transportation. A recipe for conflict.

No, fresh water. Rice is the number 1 staple food in the world. Right now the two countries who consume the majority of that are using more than they can sustain. When people start to starve, conflict will occur.

rjt123

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#2036512 14-Jun-2018 13:23

networkn:
MikeB4:

networkn:

A very smart strategist I met a few years ago said that the next world war, will be fought not over oil, but over water. I think we should be keeping ours here. Problem is, if China wants it, they could come and get it by force and it's more than a little likely no-one could or would stop them.

Maybe the strategist was referring to too much water as in rising sea levels. This will place huge pressure on useable land and displace millions of people. It will also disrupt food production and transportation. A recipe for conflict.

No, fresh water. Rice is the number 1 staple food in the world. Right now the two countries who consume the majority of that are using more than they can sustain. When people start to starve, conflict will occur.

I have actually heard that same thing as well, conflict being over fresh water, just to corroborate your previous post.

rjt123

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#2036515 14-Jun-2018 13:31

MikeAqua:
Some interesting observations from the last 24 hours: -

Greens campaigned on a crackdown on water bottlers. A Greens minister just approved (an an inward foreign investment) a large water bottling plant.

Labour (including Davis) vocally opposed double-bunking prison cells, criticised National for that policy. Labour (Davis) just approved a new prison extension that feature double bunked cells.

Every government, labour or national, right or left, can be rightly accused of telling lies, or failing to implement election promises etc. But never has there been a government who has so blatantly acted against or backtracked on their own election promises as this one.

This water bottling issue is just another nail in the coffin. As is the double bunking. I struggle to see how there is any support for them given their disregard for the voters who out them in parliament.

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