Winston. Kingmaker? Could Well Be.

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#1823710 17-Jul-2017 11:39

SaltyNZ:

mattwnz:

They are really 'ambulance at the bottom of the cliff' policies. The policies don't address the underlying problems with high housing costs. They are treating the symptoms and not the cause.

They are. But saying 'We're going to tax capital gains at 30%, remove the interest payment tax break and institute an additional land tax' is not exactly going to woo any National voters, now, is it? But it is going to need something as drastic as that to convince people to stop pushing house prices up by buying them all up as investments.

Not national voters but young adults? Who are less aligned, traditionally don't poll in high numbers, and are being encouraged to. They are a voice that may speak more and more

sen8or

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#1823733 17-Jul-2017 12:56

Back on Topic -

If I thought for a second that a vote for Winston would be a vote against a Labour/Greens alliance, I would do so in a heartbeat. having an extreme left wing socialist party dressed up as eco terrorists who are anti everything being anywhere near the reins of power is simply not a viable prospect. I don't think labour offer enough of a difference anymore, other than their desire to take more away from "the rich". Equally I wouldn't likely vote Act either, too far to the right.

Winston can only be trusted to do whatever is best for Winston and whomever is prepared to give him the most will win. Fortunately he seems to be as loathed to work with the Greens as they do with him, but politics is a fickle game and spats quickly forgotten when offering ministerial roles...

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#1823767 17-Jul-2017 13:46

tdgeek:

Not national voters but young adults? Who are less aligned, traditionally don't poll in high numbers, and are being encouraged to. They are a voice that may speak more and more

Well, to be fair, I'd have a lot of respect for any party that came out and said something actually completely different. National aren't going to change anything; why would they? Labour couldn't organise their way out of a paper bag with a map and a torch right now; the Maori Party represent, well, the Maori constituency, but not so much everybody else; Gareth Morgan's only been in this game for a few months; Act would basically scrap all laws regarding everything except the ones that make more criminals and put them in jail for longer; the Greens continually shut themselves out of government by refusing to work with anyone; and although Winston isn't quite the racist old man the media makes him out to be, he surrounds himself with people that are.

It's a bit of a wasteland, to be honest. The Greens do have youth going for them, though, and at least they are trying to tackle some of the problems we are setting ourselves up for such as an entire generation of the disenfranchised.

But, I said it last year, and I'll say it again: Winston is NZ's Brexit/Trump, so I do fully expect to see him luxuriating in his position as kingmaker.

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#1823770 17-Jul-2017 13:51

sen8or: having an extreme left wing socialist party dressed up as eco terrorists who are anti everything being anywhere near the reins of power is simply not a viable prospect.

Give it a rest. People keep beating this dead horse. You are just parroting the propaganda that you have been spoon-fed.

Although I voted for the Greens when I felt there were no better choices, I am not a Greens supporter. I agree with their principles but not always with their policies. However, dismissing them as 'an extreme left wing socialist party dressed up as eco terrorists who are anti everything' is just reactionary nonsense. In every election the Greens command around 12% of the vote. That is nearly half of what Labour gets and not a lot less than a quarter of the National vote. That represents a significant and meaningful part of the population. About the same portion that supports New Zealand First at the moment.

You don't have to like the Greens or agree with their vision, but they are a serious and thoughtful choice for many. The Greens are part of our democratic political spectrum. They are not wild-eyed extremist radicals. Disagree with them if you will, as is your good democratic right, but show them a little respect. They are there because a large number of voters want them there.

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#1823771 17-Jul-2017 13:53

SaltyNZ:

tdgeek:

Not national voters but young adults? Who are less aligned, traditionally don't poll in high numbers, and are being encouraged to. They are a voice that may speak more and more

Well, to be fair, I'd have a lot of respect for any party that came out and said something actually completely different. National aren't going to change anything; why would they? Labour couldn't organise their way out of a paper bag with a map and a torch right now; the Maori Party represent, well, the Maori constituency, but not so much everybody else; Gareth Morgan's only been in this game for a few months; Act would basically scrap all laws regarding everything except the ones that make more criminals and put them in jail for longer; the Greens continually shut themselves out of government by refusing to work with anyone; and although Winston isn't quite the racist old man the media makes him out to be, he surrounds himself with people that are.

It's a bit of a wasteland, to be honest. The Greens do have youth going for them, though, and at least they are trying to tackle some of the problems we are setting ourselves up for such as an entire generation of the disenfranchised.

But, I said it last year, and I'll say it again: Winston is NZ's Brexit/Trump, so I do fully expect to see him luxuriating in his position as kingmaker.

You paint a dismal, albeit true picture of NZ politics. On the glass half full side, a coalition will often dilute each party's goals, thats not a bad thing. Its not a "we won, we can pass any law" scenario. Maybe Winston will liven up Govt, give it some life? The Greens have now more or less stated they will work with him, and he will work with most anyone, as long as he gets his seat and the largest microphone. Maybe its time to mix it up a bit, maybe some cobwebs will be outed and modern ideas get a mention

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#1823772 17-Jul-2017 13:54

Rikkitic:

sen8or: having an extreme left wing socialist party dressed up as eco terrorists who are anti everything being anywhere near the reins of power is simply not a viable prospect.

Give it a rest. People keep beating this dead horse. You are just parroting the propaganda that you have been spoon-fed.

Although I voted for the Greens when I felt there were no better choices, I am not a Greens supporter. I agree with their principles but not always with their policies. However, dismissing them as 'an extreme left wing socialist party dressed up as eco terrorists who are anti everything' is just reactionary nonsense. In every election the Greens command around 12% of the vote. That is nearly half of what Labour gets and not a lot less than a quarter of the National vote. That represents a significant and meaningful part of the population. About the same portion that supports New Zealand First at the moment.

You don't have to like the Greens or agree with their vision, but they are a serious and thoughtful choice for many. The Greens are part of our democratic political spectrum. They are not wild-eyed extremist radicals. Disagree with them if you will, as is your good democratic right, but show them a little respect. They are there because a large number of voters want them there.

Yep. Given the woeful state the only home we have is in having a Green Party in Parliament is very important if we are going to save our home. Having said that, they really need to reconsider their choice of leader.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1823775 17-Jul-2017 13:57

Rikkitic:

sen8or: having an extreme left wing socialist party dressed up as eco terrorists who are anti everything being anywhere near the reins of power is simply not a viable prospect.

Give it a rest. People keep beating this dead horse. You are just parroting the propaganda that you have been spoon-fed.

Although I voted for the Greens when I felt there were no better choices, I am not a Greens supporter. I agree with their principles but not always with their policies. However, dismissing them as 'an extreme left wing socialist party dressed up as eco terrorists who are anti everything' is just reactionary nonsense. In every election the Greens command around 12% of the vote. That is nearly half of what Labour gets and not a lot less than a quarter of the National vote. That represents a significant and meaningful part of the population. About the same portion that supports New Zealand First at the moment.

You don't have to like the Greens or agree with their vision, but they are a serious and thoughtful choice for many. The Greens are part of our democratic political spectrum. They are not wild-eyed extremist radicals. Disagree with them if you will, as is your good democratic right, but show them a little respect. They are there because a large number of voters want them there.

That's a good summary. To me, they are less bound by the old and boring political career landscape than the main contenders

tdgeek

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#1823777 17-Jul-2017 13:59

MikeB4:

Rikkitic:

sen8or: having an extreme left wing socialist party dressed up as eco terrorists who are anti everything being anywhere near the reins of power is simply not a viable prospect.

Give it a rest. People keep beating this dead horse. You are just parroting the propaganda that you have been spoon-fed.

Although I voted for the Greens when I felt there were no better choices, I am not a Greens supporter. I agree with their principles but not always with their policies. However, dismissing them as 'an extreme left wing socialist party dressed up as eco terrorists who are anti everything' is just reactionary nonsense. In every election the Greens command around 12% of the vote. That is nearly half of what Labour gets and not a lot less than a quarter of the National vote. That represents a significant and meaningful part of the population. About the same portion that supports New Zealand First at the moment.

You don't have to like the Greens or agree with their vision, but they are a serious and thoughtful choice for many. The Greens are part of our democratic political spectrum. They are not wild-eyed extremist radicals. Disagree with them if you will, as is your good democratic right, but show them a little respect. They are there because a large number of voters want them there.

Yep. Given the woeful state the only home we have is in having a Green Party in Parliament is very important if we are going to save our home. Having said that, they really need to reconsider their choice of leader.

Very much so. The young adult votes are just waiting for them.

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#1824028 17-Jul-2017 19:52

Having listened to Winston on RNZ this morning I'm almost warming to him. His two proposed referenda make a lot of sense, and he certainly got the better of the harridan who was interviewing him. If he was a bit more predictable, and could be relied on to side with the most popular party to form a coalition, then I'd think of voting for his party.

Not so keen on Shane Jones. He came across well in the Labour leadership contest, but not so much in his recent announcement re joining NZF.

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#1824053 17-Jul-2017 20:47

One of his last referendums was whether nz should have a compulsory super annuation scheme. Despite the population overwhelming voting against one, nearly 20 years later with kiwisaver we almost have one. Only a matter of time before it will be compulsory. So is there really a point in them. I do sometimes wonder if we do have much of a democracy in nz, especially with what happens at local government level.

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#1824065 17-Jul-2017 21:27

mattwnz: One of his last referendums was whether nz should have a compulsory super annuation scheme. Despite the population overwhelming voting against one, nearly 20 years later with kiwisaver we almost have one. Only a matter of time before it will be compulsory. So is there really a point in them. I do sometimes wonder if we do have much of a democracy in nz, especially with what happens at local government level.

Hmm. We democratically elect the Govt. They do what they do for 3 years, as mandated by us. We do have a democracy

20 years is a long time. Many things change. Kiwisaver isn't compulsory and it can be drawn down for a house purchase. Thats a long way from super.

Is there a place for it? Maybe not for you nor me, but many cant do what they need to do for retirement, KS or Super covers that off. Then, the taxpayers are't locked into so much support as people retire.

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#1824075 17-Jul-2017 21:47

tdgeek:
mattwnz: One of his last referendums was whether nz should have a compulsory super annuation scheme. Despite the population overwhelming voting against one, nearly 20 years later with kiwisaver we almost have one. Only a matter of time before it will be compulsory. So is there really a point in them. I do sometimes wonder if we do have much of a democracy in nz, especially with what happens at local government level.

Hmm. We democratically elect the Govt. They do what they do for 3 years, as mandated by us. We do have a democracy

20 years is a long time. Many things change. Kiwisaver isn't compulsory and it can be drawn down for a house purchase. Thats a long way from super.

Is there a place for it? Maybe not for you nor me, but many cant do what they need to do for retirement, KS or Super covers that off. Then, the taxpayers are't locked into so much support as people retire.

From my experiences and observations at s local level, it is often council staff that make decisions. For some decisions elected councillors rubber stamp them off. But over all the general population have very little say from my observations. The majority of a town may disagree with a council decision but no referendum is carried out to be sure of numbers. Have seen this happen before and don't think that is democratic imo.

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#1824078 17-Jul-2017 21:54

mattwnz:
tdgeek:

mattwnz: One of his last referendums was whether nz should have a compulsory super annuation scheme. Despite the population overwhelming voting against one, nearly 20 years later with kiwisaver we almost have one. Only a matter of time before it will be compulsory. So is there really a point in them. I do sometimes wonder if we do have much of a democracy in nz, especially with what happens at local government level.

Hmm. We democratically elect the Govt. They do what they do for 3 years, as mandated by us. We do have a democracy

20 years is a long time. Many things change. Kiwisaver isn't compulsory and it can be drawn down for a house purchase. Thats a long way from super.

Is there a place for it? Maybe not for you nor me, but many cant do what they need to do for retirement, KS or Super covers that off. Then, the taxpayers are't locked into so much support as people retire.

From my experiences and observations at s local level, it is often council staff that make decisions. For some decisions elected councillors rubber stamp them off. But over all the general population have very little say from my observations. The majority of a town may disagree with a council decision but no referendum is carried out to be sure of numbers. Have seen this happen before and don't think that is democratic imo.

I agree with the Local Government observations. Local government in NZ is a shambles and needs a serious review and extensive reform.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

mattwnz

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#1824079 17-Jul-2017 21:57

Kiwi saver can only be used for the purchase of a first house, and also only used the once. Also I believe it can only be used on a house you live in. Also having this just pushes house prices up due to people being able to afford to pay more, so nzers may not be better off as a whole having this policy in place.
I believe people are now automatically enrolled in kiwisaver when they start a new job, and as more people join up it is really only matter of time before it is compulsory imo.

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#1824080 17-Jul-2017 22:00

Rikkitic:

You don't have to like the Greens or agree with their vision, but they are a serious and thoughtful choice for many. The Greens are part of our democratic political spectrum. They are not wild-eyed extremist radicals. Disagree with them if you will, as is your good democratic right, but show them a little respect. They are there because a large number of voters want them there.

I disagree. Despite the name, they aren't really a "green" party and haven't been for many years now. They are relatively hard-left socialists, to the left of the Callaghan government in the UK, with a faint green veneer for marketing purposes. I think that it would be very bad for the country if they had any meaningful voice in wider policy, or got their hands on the levers of power, and I feel under no particular obligation to show them any respect whatsoever.

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