Our new coalition government.

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#2142828 10-Dec-2018 22:46

Rikkitic:

I suppose. What is your point?

He is trying to bait you into saying that the Regional Fuel Tax is a levy, in that its there for a specific reason, and its not called a levy. Pretty droll.

Technically a tax is a noun (as well as a verb), and levy is the verb. Also tax and levy can be used interchangeable. But in the very common context, a tax is a general contribution, while a levy is a tax for a specific use of the funds.

But he used petrol tax, which is a general contribution tax. The RFT while called a tax, is self described as specific. A Regional Fuel Tax for Auckland.

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#2142832 10-Dec-2018 22:57

tdgeek:

First point is wrong. These threads are all about anti Labour bias. They are not about discussing the new Coalition Govt. That extremely obvious. Thats fine, but its extremely one sided. Criticise National and the daggers come out.

If there wasn't so much to critisize, there wouldn't be so much critism. I feel like if anyone says anything bad about Labour/NZF/Greens, the daggers come out.

Everybody here agrees re Kiwibuild, so there is no argument there, so unsure why you raised it, I have criticised it many times, with why. While on this point, its a good idea ion principle, but the horse has already bolted. The prices nationwide are too high to support new builds, thats a factor for the industry as a whole, the buyers aren't there. That should have been patently obvious to anyone following the market. You cant build houses for those that cannot afford them. Its not mismanagement at all, they created a venture where there are few buyers. Its a policy fail, it should have encompassed many factors, such as supporting subdivision of 1/4 acre properties, apartments, buying cheap but solid homes and renovating them (if thats still viable now)

I bought it up because you said Kiwibuild being called a trainwreck was an assumption painted as fact. I am stating, it's a fact it's a trainwreck (As a policy, and as an implementation) and then provided evidence as to why I feel that way. That's a discussion, and a justification. it's a flagship policy.

Its barely past 1/3 term, surplus was fine, things are moving, its not a trainwreck.

So you attribute the surplus to Labour?

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#2142834 10-Dec-2018 23:02

tdgeek:

MikeB4:

The Coalitions' record to date is not exactly stellar but it is not quite a train wreck. The Lees-Galloway issues still needs addressing. The alternative to the Coalition however is just too hideous to contemplate right now.

Thats my feeling. Its early, new people, mistakes were made and will be made, but the direction is what I favour. Its going ok. My pass mark is 6/10. If it was all going swimmingly it would only be a 7 max. Results will tell the story, thats 2 years away. How one policy goes also isnt a result to me, you can get 10/10 on one policy and falter on many, so lets see. I also want to see what national does policy wise, they can bank the cash and say how good we are doing. The next election will cover handouts and promises, I just hope it doesn't come down to a handout fest, and I refer to both parties.

You are a coalition supporter and give them a 6/10 but I am a National supporter (currently) and would give them a 4/10. That doesn't seem a massive difference to me. It's not 9 vs 1 for example. It's not a great mark for the coalition I don't think. I'd be pretty disappointed if I was getting 6/10 for anything.

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#2142850 10-Dec-2018 23:46

networkn:

I feel like if anyone says anything bad about Labour/NZF/Greens, the daggers come out.

I bought it up because you said Kiwibuild being called a trainwreck was an assumption painted as fact. I am stating, it's a fact it's a trainwreck (As a policy, and as an implementation) and then provided evidence as to why I feel that way. That's a discussion, and a justification. it's a flagship policy.

So you attribute the surplus to Labour?

I believe you feel that. From my recollections in the bashing threads, its been one way traffic, by volume and intensity. Continual attack, some defence, its laughable at times, honestly. As a lot of content is rhetoric, not discussion. Criticise National, and wow, expect a BIG response. Along with a LOT of smart aleck, and worse responses. Id be happy to go toe to toe in that vein, but my god, at times it gets ridiculous. It then becomes tit for tat, nothing more. Labour is up for criticism, as they are in power doing things so plenty to work with. There is the sore loser sentiment, and that the Labour people here are not as aggressive. All I ask is debate and discussion, but it always ends up with anger and one set of rules. Example. You say I go on and on about the tax cuts. If people want to say this and that are a waste of money by Labour, the tax cuts is a fair response. Believe it or not Labour is not the only party to make mistakes, stuff things up, do the wrong thing or do no thing. Nations isnt the Blue Saviour, nor is Labour the Red Devil. while Labour is making its way, literally from scratch, its not the only party in town, some factors are inherited. Whats happening now is our to Clarke, Key and Adern. If they stay in for three terms (you can grab that bucket now) then where NZ is at by then, will largely be on Labours report. But in these threads its nit about that, its 90% bagging, although some good comments the last couple of days, many of which involve this Govt and the two previous. Take transport its a problem now due to longstanding fails in the past. By both.

Found the post. The many comments were about transport. The poster talked about transport also, ending by using those funds for Kiwibuild. You said he was sarcastic. I took your comments re train wreck as referring to the sarcastic means, which A) you said he was, you ticked me off for being sarcastic recently. Its a train wreck. i.e. sarcasm. My mistake there. I've said so often Kiwibuild is poor, so no reason for me to assume you were referring to my stance on it

Yes, I attribute the surplus to Labour. Really, it should be attributed to National, as economies are slow to react. However, NZ is small, we have a budget, the economy trundles along, it went fail under Labour that quick, nor succeed. So the surplus is generated based on the past. Thats where you are coming from. Labour has the opportunity to turn NZ upside down and ruin the economy. Given the many many adjectives used here since befit and after the election. Hasn't happened, as they are spending as per the budget. They are also conservative as I mentioned earlier (but positive things are ignore, but fair play on that) they have a fiscal responsibility policy, which you will have heard of. So, the economy is moving along, budget on track, spending on track, and if we gave the stupid foulups the weighting they deserve things are moving along. Employment is lower, tax take is bigger despite low business confidence (which was admittedly always just the usual) investment is up, and so on. Teachers and health are getting more, transport news today. Its being managed.

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#2142851 10-Dec-2018 23:55

networkn:

tdgeek:

MikeB4:

The Coalitions' record to date is not exactly stellar but it is not quite a train wreck. The Lees-Galloway issues still needs addressing. The alternative to the Coalition however is just too hideous to contemplate right now.

Thats my feeling. Its early, new people, mistakes were made and will be made, but the direction is what I favour. Its going ok. My pass mark is 6/10. If it was all going swimmingly it would only be a 7 max. Results will tell the story, thats 2 years away. How one policy goes also isnt a result to me, you can get 10/10 on one policy and falter on many, so lets see. I also want to see what national does policy wise, they can bank the cash and say how good we are doing. The next election will cover handouts and promises, I just hope it doesn't come down to a handout fest, and I refer to both parties.

You are a coalition supporter and give them a 6/10 but I am a National supporter (currently) and would give them a 4/10. That doesn't seem a massive difference to me. It's not 9 vs 1 for example. It's not a great mark for the coalition I don't think. I'd be pretty disappointed if I was getting 6/10 for anything.

I am a coalition support (currently) I have aero idea who I will vote for next time. No clue. I have nothing to base it on. At 1/3 in I cannot give anyone over 6/10. When they gained power, nothing happens. Settle in, and many policies have then to be worked through. Some policies have been enacted, but the first year is planning. Transport is the obvious example, a huge amount of planning. As the term goes on, there will be a trend. Polices get done or dont get done, they remain in budget or they dont, they have the desired effect, or they dont. Thats when 6/10 can go to 2, or 7, or 9, or 5. Wait and see. My 6/10 excludes sideshows, BTW. If Lees-Galloway gets fired etc or not, that has no effect on the well being of NZ in Oct 2020. Admittedly I am cutting them slack while they bed in.

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#2142886 11-Dec-2018 07:32

I think some comparisons can be made already.

One billion trees is now half a billion max (it's unclear whether trees that have to be mulched can be counted).

In opposition JA said zero suicides should be the govt target. Now it's 20% reduction by 2030.

It's the usual story: Idealists get into power and talk to the people who know stuff. Doing is not as easy a stalking and the reality of government is not as simple as they thought.

Happens with National and Labour - just over different stuff.

Mike

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#2142971 11-Dec-2018 09:47

Phil Twyford in May: “These kids at Treasury are...completely disconnected from reality.”

Phil Twyford yesterday: I couldn’t possibly comment on a public servant.

Jacinda Ardern re Sroubek: “reading between the lines you can probably ascertain why the Minister made the decision that he made.”

Jacinda Ardern on Barclay: “I wouldn't encourage people to read between the lines”

While amusing, I guess you could call this evidence of them being quick learners!

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#2142988 11-Dec-2018 10:04

Bill English "There is no housing crisis"

Bill English when given details of the housing crisis, same meeting [smiles, says nothing]

Simon Bridges Everything he said and denied post JLR!

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#2143006 11-Dec-2018 10:22

tdgeek:

Bill English "There is no housing crisis"

Bill English when given details of the housing crisis, same meeting [smiles, says nothing]

Simon Bridges Everything he said and denied post JLR!

So when you counter a point, it's constructive and useful to the discussion, but when anyone else does it, there is "point scoring" and "let's have an actual discussion"?

tdgeek

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#2143012 11-Dec-2018 10:33

networkn:

tdgeek:

Bill English "There is no housing crisis"

Bill English when given details of the housing crisis, same meeting [smiles, says nothing]

Simon Bridges Everything he said and denied post JLR!

So when you counter a point, it's constructive and useful to the discussion, but when anyone else does it, there is "point scoring" and "let's have an actual discussion"?

I'm adding other examples, to show its not just a Labour thing. That is the counter and thus its constructive. In line with what Mike said earlier, they all do it. Its not a specific topic to discuss

The point scoring is showing Labour up with these poor utterings from them. I just equalised that, that's all. Its a politician thing not a Labour thing quite clearly.

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#2143018 11-Dec-2018 10:44

tdgeek:
Bill English "There is no housing crisis"

Bill English when given details of the housing crisis, same meeting [smiles, says nothing]

Simon Bridges Everything he said and denied post JLR!

Neither of those are examples of a politician saying exactly the opposite to what they had said weeks or months earlier.

tdgeek

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#2143022 11-Dec-2018 10:48

Reciprocity:
tdgeek:

Bill English "There is no housing crisis"

Bill English when given details of the housing crisis, same meeting [smiles, says nothing]

Simon Bridges Everything he said and denied post JLR!

Neither of those are examples of a politician saying exactly the opposite to what they had said weeks or months earlier.

Has Bill always denied there is a housing crisis? I doubt that very much, he isn't stupid

You know what Simon said on his tape, and what he denied earlier.

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#2143026 11-Dec-2018 11:02

If you provided some actual quotes, then your counterpoint would be a LOT more effective, and a lot less like a “but they did it too!” argument which is the kind of reasoning that I often get from my toddler.

tdgeek

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#2143060 11-Dec-2018 11:09

Reciprocity: If you provided some actual quotes, then your counterpoint would be a LOT more effective, and a lot less like a “but they did it too!” argument which is the kind of reasoning that I often get from my toddler.

Either Labour has these failings, or its what politicians do. its one or the other. There is no excuse for some of these utterings, and if this is endemic to Labour, your points would carry a lot of weight. But its not, its that simple.

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#2143089 11-Dec-2018 11:47

I guess TD that people may have had higher expectations from the way Ardern and the media promised transparent, transformational and compassionate Government during the campaign and the initial days.

That's why 'business as usual' isn't cutting the mustard for some people.

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