Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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Awrrr
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#3113078 8-Aug-2023 08:41

sen8or:

Rikkitic: Nothing wrong with the government taking your money if what they give back is worthwhile. The Danes recently emerged from a survey as the happiest people on earth. I object to the American demonisation of socialism as something bad. It doesn't have to be.

Everything is wrong with the Govt taking your money and deciding what they think is worthwhile. What motivation is there for success if you don't reap the rewards of your effort?

What committee decides "whats worthwhile" - goodbye anything that is deemed unnecessary by some bureaucrat, goodbye innovation and goodbye any meaningful wealth / investment in the country.

1000% wrong

The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other peoples money to spend.....

What committee decides how to treat your cancer or how to fix your car? We all rely on specialist knowledge to perform complex tasks. Bureaucracies may or may not function well but they exist for a reason. Ask an individual taxpayer to come up with tax policy and they will pick something that benefits them individually. The task of the bureaucracy is to see the bigger picture and come up with a policy that provides maximum benefit to all.

What you are celebrating is the rugged individualist wild west survivalist mentality. So take your gun to America and go out and shoot a deer. The civilised world has moved past your way of thinking. It is about how we live well together, not about how one person can climb over the bodies of the rest.

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itxtme

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#3113082 8-Aug-2023 08:44

Gurezaemon:

Rikkitic:

A problem with our 5% system is that any vote for a party that doesn't meet the threshold is wasted unless the party wins an electorate seat. Why bother voting if my vote is just going to be binned?

Many of the minor parties started as statistically irrelevant. Until enough people got sick of the regular big parties and took a chance on them.

Actually since MMP no minor party has ever made the 5% threshold without their leader being a previous sitting MP. I agree with Rikkitic, the level is too high and does cause waste to votes, but also is a cycle of if they arent going to get 5% then I best not waste my vote, which means they will never get 5%. On the other side of the coin its kept some loonies out too, so *shrug*

tdgeek

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#3113085 8-Aug-2023 08:57

itxtme:

Actually since MMP no minor party has ever made the 5% threshold without their leader being a previous sitting MP. I agree with Rikkitic, the level is too high and does cause waste to votes, but also is a cycle of if they arent going to get 5% then I best not waste my vote, which means they will never get 5%. On the other side of the coin its kept some loonies out too, so *shrug*

It needs a lower level that can generally keep the loonies out. If a small party got a measly 2% of the vote, well, 2% is not measly. They deserve 2% of the seats

You would still have the standard minority party Nat or Lab arrange a coalition government. But there can be a couple or three 2 percenters that can make a difference. No votes should be wasted

Gurezaemon

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#3113088 8-Aug-2023 09:05

itxtme:

Actually since MMP no minor party has ever made the 5% threshold without their leader being a previous sitting MP. I agree with Rikkitic, the level is too high and does cause waste to votes, but also is a cycle of if they arent going to get 5% then I best not waste my vote, which means they will never get 5%. On the other side of the coin its kept some loonies out too, so *shrug*

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. One point that the minor parties seem to play, however, is to act as a sort of sounding board for policies that the larger parties can then implement. TOP's discussion of a UBI has for example meant that a lot more people are aware of the concept than maybe would have been a couple of years ago.

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GV27

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#3113090 8-Aug-2023 09:17

tdgeek:

No votes should be wasted

While I appreciate the sentiment, in 2017 the party that got the most votes didn't get to form the government. There's no overriding principle that says everyone has to get what they want from the election result.

It's simply not practical. At some point someone is going to have to live with a government they didn't want.

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#3113092 8-Aug-2023 09:20

GV27:

While I appreciate the sentiment, in 2017 the party that got the most votes didn't get to form the government. There's no overriding principle that says everyone has to get what they want from the election result.

It's simply not practical. At some point someone is going to have to live with a government they didn't want.

That's happened before, here and elsehwere, but that wasn't my point

If we had 3 or 4 parties that got 4% of the votes, they are wasted votes, potentially 12%, or 1/8 didn't count.

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sir1963

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#3113096 8-Aug-2023 09:35

tdgeek:

That's happened before, here and elsehwere, but that wasn't my point

If we had 3 or 4 parties that got 4% of the votes, they are wasted votes, potentially 12%, or 1/8 didn't count.

NO votes are ever "wasted", they are an expression of who each individual voter would like to represent them in parliament.

They may not get their desired outcome, but unless they express it they will NEVER get their desired outcome. Even if a vote is made in protest, that voter is allowed and encouraged to do so.

sir1963

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#3113097 8-Aug-2023 09:38

"Prime Minister Chris Hipkins doesn't accept crime has become worse under his watch"

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/prime-minister-chris-hipkins-doesn-t-accept-crime-has-become-worse-under-his-watch.html

Well DUH... for small crimes the police are 100% useless, so why even bother to report them.

Its not like crime rates falling, its the reporting of crime that is actually falling.

tdgeek

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#3113099 8-Aug-2023 09:43

sir1963:

NO votes are ever "wasted", they are an expression of who each individual voter would like to represent them in parliament.

They may not get their desired outcome, but unless they express it they will NEVER get their desired outcome. Even if a vote is made in protest, that voter is allowed and encouraged to do so.

Yes but some votes never get represented if they fall under the threshold. May as well go to the voting booth and file it in the waste bin. If a part has 2% interest they should get 2% of the result. So the issue is what is a reasonable threshold?

sir1963

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#3113105 8-Aug-2023 09:49

tdgeek:

Yes but some votes never get represented if they fall under the threshold. May as well go to the voting booth and file it in the waste bin. If a part has 2% interest they should get 2% of the result. So the issue is what is a reasonable threshold?

Voting has NEVER been a guarantee that your views get represented, the ONLY right you have is the freedom to make your vote.

EVERY government has policies that I object to, including the party I voted for, how is my vote not equally wasted in that case ?

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#3113142 8-Aug-2023 11:25

sir1963:

tdgeek:

Yes but some votes never get represented if they fall under the threshold. May as well go to the voting booth and file it in the waste bin. If a part has 2% interest they should get 2% of the result. So the issue is what is a reasonable threshold?

Voting has NEVER been a guarantee that your views get represented, the ONLY right you have is the freedom to make your vote.

EVERY government has policies that I object to, including the party I voted for, how is my vote not equally wasted in that case ?

“Voting isn’t marriage, it’s public transport. You’re not waiting for “the one” who’s absolutely perfect: you’re getting the bus, and if there isn’t one to your destination, you don’t not travel- you take the one going closest.”

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tdgeek

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#3113145 8-Aug-2023 11:32

sir1963:

Voting has NEVER been a guarantee that your views get represented, the ONLY right you have is the freedom to make your vote.

EVERY government has policies that I object to, including the party I voted for, how is my vote not equally wasted in that case ?

Thats not the point I am making. We have a right to vote. If we do, our choice may or may not succeed. But a vote that goes into the rubbish bin is a wasted vote whereby my participation is not represented. As my party didnt meet the 5% threshold

sir1963

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#3113199 8-Aug-2023 11:49

tdgeek:

sir1963:

Voting has NEVER been a guarantee that your views get represented, the ONLY right you have is the freedom to make your vote.

EVERY government has policies that I object to, including the party I voted for, how is my vote not equally wasted in that case ?

Thats not the point I am making. We have a right to vote. If we do, our choice may or may not succeed. But a vote that goes into the rubbish bin is a wasted vote whereby my participation is not represented. As my party didnt meet the 5% threshold

It is no less wasted than you voting for a party who them implements a policy you disagree with. You vote meant and achieved nothing here too.

Voting for someone you disagree with simply because they are popular is simply a tacit agreement that you approve their policies, voting against them is a clear indication you do not, even if you do not get direct representation the parties are aware of areas they are losing votes to.

Voting based on tribalism, ie like the USA, is even worse, because the parties know 90% of their voters will always vote for them, all they need to do is suppress the other side and the swing voters to win.

sen8or

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#3113211 8-Aug-2023 12:10

And where do we draw the line on % of votes if not 5%, 2%? Will there then be an argument that its not fair on those only reaching 1.9% and we really need to adjust them? Rinse and repeat?

Do we really want a Govt so tied up in knots surrounded by fringe parties to make a "representative Govt" that it can't get simple legislation across the line because it doesn't appeal to someone who represents such a small% of the vote?

tdgeek

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#3113222 8-Aug-2023 12:28

sir1963:

It is no less wasted than you voting for a party who them implements a policy you disagree with. You vote meant and achieved nothing here too.

Voting for someone you disagree with simply because they are popular is simply a tacit agreement that you approve their policies, voting against them is a clear indication you do not, even if you do not get direct representation the parties are aware of areas they are losing votes to.

Voting based on tribalism, ie like the USA, is even worse, because the parties know 90% of their voters will always vote for them, all they need to do is suppress the other side and the swing voters to win.

You're assuming that votes for small parties are a bit of a laugh and not serious. At least we would see new ideas and new opposition in Parliament thats not 100% partisan, party-line based. Nothing wrong with that

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