Ukraine War discussion

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#2897146 5-Apr-2022 11:10

SaltyNZ:

NATO is a defensive arrangement - NATO members are only obligated to aid one another if they are attacked. If they start a war and get hit back in return, NATO does not have to help. So if the US, or any other NATO member, unilaterally strikes against Russia then they may find themselves hung out to dry just like Ukraine. Nobody wants to risk that, at least not yet. It's cynical, but it's the reality of the situation.

Yes I know all that.

Why are NATO countries aiding Ukraine?

Why is Ukraine hung out to dry? They didnt start the war against Russia and thus got hung out to dry

No one needs to help Ukraine as there is no defence agreement in place, but they are. NZ is as well. Why? As an independent country got invaded with no justification. Thats a moral outlook. Now, its genocide, rape and torture. Not just Bucha, its already seen as the tip of the iceberg. Where does humanity draw the line? Every week it escalates, and each week, the current escalation dwarfs last weeks.

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#2897154 5-Apr-2022 11:31

Dictators' Lament:

Putin: "Damn! I really miss the good old days, when I could just destroy any country I wanted without fear of retaliation."

Lukashenko: "Mmm..."

Trump crowned? No faux King way!

SaltyNZ

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#2897162 5-Apr-2022 12:04

tdgeek:

No one needs to help Ukraine as there is no defence agreement in place, but they are. NZ is as well. Why? As an independent country got invaded with no justification. Thats a moral outlook. Now, its genocide, rape and torture. Not just Bucha, its already seen as the tip of the iceberg. Where does humanity draw the line? Every week it escalates, and each week, the current escalation dwarfs last weeks.

Humanity draws the line wherever the votes are. Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria have been humanitarian disasters for years. There is a tenuous ceasefire in Yemen right now, but the Americans are fine with supplying brand new upgraded F-15SAs to Saudi so they can bomb the crap out of them whenever they are ready to resume. We occasionally wring our hands about Palestine, but nobody is sanctioning Israel, and we more or less ignore it every time Eritrea and Ethiopia fight each other.

The only real differences here are that a) it's not The Good Guys aka Our Side doing the invading this time, and b) this conflict has the potential to actually affect our lives if it turns into all-out war in Europe.

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#2897165 5-Apr-2022 12:05

How far, really, is Putin prepared to go? Is he still acting rationally? What if he starts throwing nukes? I agree the world has to act and stop him now, but what might the consequences of that be? Germany in WWII was a formidable foe but it did not have the capacity to destroy the entire planet.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2897166 5-Apr-2022 12:07

tdgeek:

SJB:

Biden won't do it.

Does Biden own NATO? Or the World?

Effectively yes.

cruxis

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#2897168 5-Apr-2022 12:12

Is Ukraine worth the potential destruction of Paris, London, New York, Auckland.... and no kiwi Soldiers should be sent to die in another Bloody European War either if it gets to that.

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#2897178 5-Apr-2022 12:54

cruxis:

Is Ukraine worth the potential destruction of Paris, London, New York, Auckland.... and no kiwi Soldiers should be sent to die in another Bloody European War either if it gets to that.

If Ukraine falls without resistance, won’t that send the signal that empires can be expanded by conflict with smaller nations? Ukraine’s neighbours, Taiwan, Japan etc.And the Chinese are militarily coming to our side of the world with the Samoan islands.

cruxis

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#2897210 5-Apr-2022 14:38

rugrat:

cruxis:

Is Ukraine worth the potential destruction of Paris, London, New York, Auckland.... and no kiwi Soldiers should be sent to die in another Bloody European War either if it gets to that.

If Ukraine falls without resistance, won’t that send the signal that empires can be expanded by conflict with smaller nations? Ukraine’s neighbours, Taiwan, Japan etc.And the Chinese are militarily coming to our side of the world with the Samoan islands.

Yes, Small nations should join alliances or get WMD before it is too late.

Japans PM is asking that very question. Scary times are comming indeed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/01/china-rattled-by-calls-for-japan-to-host-us-nuclear-weapons#:~:text=Japan%2C%20the%20only%20country%20to,allow%20them%20on%20its%20territory.

tdgeek

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#2897211 5-Apr-2022 14:44

cruxis:

Yes, Small nations should join alliances or get WMD before it is too late.

Japans PM is asking that very question. Scary times are comming indeed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/01/china-rattled-by-calls-for-japan-to-host-us-nuclear-weapons#:~:text=Japan%2C%20the%20only%20country%20to,allow%20them%20on%20its%20territory.

Its really annoying when its ok for China to have nuclear weapons but not ok for a neighbour in Japan to get/host their own to have some means of protection/defence... It was a deterrent in Cold War 1.0 bit maybe these days its not fair to defend yourself.

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#2897222 5-Apr-2022 15:25

tdgeek:

Its really annoying when its ok for China to have nuclear weapons but not ok for a neighbour in Japan to get/host their own to have some means of protection/defence... It was a deterrent in Cold War 1.0 bit maybe these days its not fair to defend yourself.

The NPT entrenched the big five as nuclear powers with no real imperative to disarm, whilst the Security Council rules gave them all a veto which meant no other country could challenge them. Thus, no Security Council condemnation of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

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#2897249 5-Apr-2022 16:24

rugrat:

If Ukraine falls without resistance, won’t that send the signal that empires can be expanded by conflict with smaller nations? Ukraine’s neighbours, Taiwan, Japan etc.And the Chinese are militarily coming to our side of the world with the [s] Samoan[s/] islands.

Solomon.

question is, will Australia help us?

Answer : my passport is always ready and I have family across the ditch and a license to work

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#2897264 5-Apr-2022 17:57

I heard the Russian UN Ambassador refer to the 'war' in Ukraine rather then the 'special military operation' at a press conference this morning.

I guess he'll be enjoying one of Putin's 'special holiday packages' in a Siberian salt mine in the not too distant future.

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#2897291 5-Apr-2022 19:32

On the other hand it may be hinting at a possible declaration of war under Russian domestic law meaning conscripts can be sent to the front with minimal training.

neb

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#2897337 5-Apr-2022 21:15

Interesting commentary from former oligarch Mikhail Khodorkovsky on dealing with Putin, including describing dealing with a psychopath (without saying so), someone who sees any attempt at compromise as weakness to be exploited so the only way to deal with him is to confront him with force, or at least the threat of force, to get him to back down.

kingdragonfly

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#2897755 6-Apr-2022 17:39

I'm surprised that Mikhail Khodorkovsky hasn't "accidentally brutally stabbed himself in the stomach while shaving" or "accidentally brutally cut his head off while combing his hair"

ala Black Adder

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