Bombing at Manchester concert, 19 dead

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Forums › Politics › Bombing at Manchester concert, 19 dead

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#1787880 25-May-2017 08:42

It's euphemistic avoidance of saying directly what most people probably know what he means.

Having a "touch of the tarbrush" was okay, though would probably be explained away by claiming French ancestry etc

Unsurprisingly, the same people who tend to use such euphemisms are the same folks who'll argue against "political correctness" - as life would be much simpler for them if they could get their bigoted message across in a few words - without getting called out for what they are.

surfisup1000

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#1787925 25-May-2017 09:06

I t

joker97:

I don't understand how "religion" can "seem to bestow special authority" to do "illegal acts". Is the Mongrel Mob a religion? Is the CIA a religion? Are American soldiers a religion? What about Pol Pot and Mao Zedong - they are religions too? Are bullies at school part of some bully religion?

So you have a group of people told to do bad things. People do bad things. Whether you're a scientist, a religious person or a religious scientist - it has absolutely zero bearing on whether you'd do bad things.

I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me, so let's leave this at that.

None of your groups are religions and their motivations are quite different to that of a religious extremist. Religion is a guiding system of faith and supernatural/unscientific beliefs as opposed to a job or club membership.

Religion controls a persons way of life from birth to death...24/7...with overriding control over your life and social relations. Cults and religions are more similar.

The islamic terrorist gets their authority from the Koran which describes their religious obligations. One of those obligations is to carry out suicide bombings (kill infidels) and the koran promises they will fly to heaven and get 72 virgins (or lush life depending on translation).

If islam was never created, we would not have the terrorist bombings as they are happening today. The person who committed the Manchester bombings would not have done this because there would have been no promise of 72 virgins, nor would there be a religious book granting him authority to do what he did.

Where I possibly do agree with you, is that people become disaffected and commit atrocities regardless of religion. But, you totally discount religion as a causation, i do not. Causation varies.

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#1787930 25-May-2017 09:13

Fred99:

It's euphemistic avoidance of saying directly what most people probably know what he means.

Having a "touch of the tarbrush" was okay, though would probably be explained away by claiming French ancestry etc

Unsurprisingly, the same people who tend to use such euphemisms are the same folks who'll argue against "political correctness" - as life would be much simpler for them if they could get their bigoted message across in a few words - without getting called out for what they are.

Thanks for this - 'twas similarly planning on calling this out for what it is.

Reminds me of the debate on another thread here on GZ, based around the tacit assumptions (rarely acknowledged out loud) of what "we" (in this case "British") are.

We're white.
We speak the Queen's English.
We know our place in a highly stratified society.
And we certainly don't like having our country over-run by all these very people that don't meet the first two requirements.

I find this is a common thread amongst a number of people from the UK who have immigrated to NZ - one of the key reasons for the shift is the loss of what made Britain great; the very fabric of British life being torn asunder by the arrival of these foreigners.

Fred99

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#1787941 25-May-2017 09:32

surfisup1000:

The islamic terrorist gets their authority from the Koran which describes their religious obligations. One of those obligations is to carry out suicide bombings (kill infidels) and the koran promises they will fly to heaven and get 72 virgins (or lush life depending on translation).

What a load of twaddle.

surfisup1000

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#1788012 25-May-2017 10:13

Fred99:

surfisup1000:

The islamic terrorist gets their authority from the Koran which describes their religious obligations. One of those obligations is to carry out suicide bombings (kill infidels) and the koran promises they will fly to heaven and get 72 virgins (or lush life depending on translation).

What a load of twaddle.

Yawn, here you go...

Hadith 1:13-- "I have been ordered by Allah to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah."
Hadith 1.24 "Narrated Ibn `Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers"
Hadith 1.25"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
Hadith 19:4294 "Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war."
Hadith 1:35 "The person who participates in Allah's cause (namely, in battle). . will be recompensed by Allah either with reward or booty or will be admitted to Paradise."
Hadith 9:4 "Wherever you find infidels kill them; for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Hadith 9:50, 57 "No Umma (a member of Muslim community) should be killed for killing a Kafir (an infidel). . Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him."
Sahih Muslim 4363: "You (the Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle and I wish to expel you from this land (Arabia)
Sahih Muslim 4366 Narrated by Umar ibn al-Khattab. Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims

It is clearly ridiculous to think these bombings have nothing to do with religion.

Rikkitic

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#1788023 25-May-2017 10:37

Then of course there is always the bible:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2015/01/22/yes-the-bible-does-say-to-kill-infidels/

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#1788026 25-May-2017 10:38

Rikkitic:

Then of course there is always the bible:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2015/01/22/yes-the-bible-does-say-to-kill-infidels/

Exactly, and many atrocities were committed in the name of the bible. Thankfully things like the magna carta came along.

Religion is an enabler , especially when you get a group of people in an echo box encouraging each other.

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#1788030 25-May-2017 10:44

surfisup1000:

Yawn, here you go...

Hadith 1:13-- "I have been ordered by Allah to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah."
Hadith 1.24 "Narrated Ibn `Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers"
Hadith 1.25"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
Hadith 19:4294 "Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war."
Hadith 1:35 "The person who participates in Allah's cause (namely, in battle). . will be recompensed by Allah either with reward or booty or will be admitted to Paradise."
Hadith 9:4 "Wherever you find infidels kill them; for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Hadith 9:50, 57 "No Umma (a member of Muslim community) should be killed for killing a Kafir (an infidel). . Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him."
Sahih Muslim 4363: "You (the Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle and I wish to expel you from this land (Arabia)
Sahih Muslim 4366 Narrated by Umar ibn al-Khattab. Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims

It is clearly ridiculous to think these bombings have nothing to do with religion.

Are you seriously quoting the above to prove your point?

It's already been pointed out above that other regions' "holy books" - including the Bible - contain equally outlandish and out-dated statements that have no relevance to contemporary society, and which but a few zealots ever take seriously in a literal sense.

Every religion has its fundamentalists - it's these crack-pots that will selectively take such statements as those you highlight above and use them to justify their wider conservative agenda, all the meanwhile ignoring those bits that don't support their case.

To make the assumption that all Muslims are fundamentalists (which I believe you are doing) is not only clearly wrong but incredibly damaging, as it simply feeds cultural/religious misunderstandings. And how does that help?

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#1788031 25-May-2017 10:46

surfisup1000:

Fred99:

surfisup1000:

The islamic terrorist gets their authority from the Koran which describes their religious obligations. One of those obligations is to carry out suicide bombings (kill infidels) and the koran promises they will fly to heaven and get 72 virgins (or lush life depending on translation).

What a load of twaddle.

Yawn, here you go...

Hadith 1:13-- "I have been ordered by Allah to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah."
Hadith 1.24 "Narrated Ibn `Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers"
Hadith 1.25"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
Hadith 19:4294 "Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war."
Hadith 1:35 "The person who participates in Allah's cause (namely, in battle). . will be recompensed by Allah either with reward or booty or will be admitted to Paradise."
Hadith 9:4 "Wherever you find infidels kill them; for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Hadith 9:50, 57 "No Umma (a member of Muslim community) should be killed for killing a Kafir (an infidel). . Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him."
Sahih Muslim 4363: "You (the Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle and I wish to expel you from this land (Arabia)
Sahih Muslim 4366 Narrated by Umar ibn al-Khattab. Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims

It is clearly ridiculous to think these bombings have nothing to do with religion.

You say the authority is from the Koran. But you quoted "hadith" which is supposedly the sayings of the prophet.

Bahaha Yeap.. Yawn

jonathan18

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#1788033 25-May-2017 10:49

surfisup1000:

Rikkitic:

Then of course there is always the bible:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2015/01/22/yes-the-bible-does-say-to-kill-infidels/

Exactly, and many atrocities were committed in the name of the bible. Thankfully things like the magna carta came along.

Religion is an enabler , especially when you get a group of people in an echo box encouraging each other.

Exactly - as you say "committed in the name of the Bible" - ie people finding justification for their actions through the mis-reading or selective quoting of their holy book. You must surely be able to see the parallel here?!

Christianity is still a significant religion, so using your argument all those who identify as Christians must surely subscribe to the literal word of the Bible. Of course that's not the case; so why is it any different for Islam?

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#1788034 25-May-2017 10:51

surfisup1000:

Fred99:

surfisup1000:

The islamic terrorist gets their authority from the Koran which describes their religious obligations. One of those obligations is to carry out suicide bombings (kill infidels) and the koran promises they will fly to heaven and get 72 virgins (or lush life depending on translation).

What a load of twaddle.

Yawn, here you go...

Hadith 1:13-- "I have been ordered by Allah to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah."
Hadith 1.24 "Narrated Ibn `Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers"
Hadith 1.25"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
Hadith 19:4294 "Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war."
Hadith 1:35 "The person who participates in Allah's cause (namely, in battle). . will be recompensed by Allah either with reward or booty or will be admitted to Paradise."
Hadith 9:4 "Wherever you find infidels kill them; for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Hadith 9:50, 57 "No Umma (a member of Muslim community) should be killed for killing a Kafir (an infidel). . Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him."
Sahih Muslim 4363: "You (the Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle and I wish to expel you from this land (Arabia)
Sahih Muslim 4366 Narrated by Umar ibn al-Khattab. Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims

It is clearly ridiculous to think these bombings have nothing to do with religion.

Ok, so some religious people write instructions to commit mass atrocities. That is not the same as religion is the cause of mass atrocities.

Rabbits have chewed on fibreoptic cables and caused internet outages. That is not the same as rabbits are the cause of internet outages.

No?

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#1788037 25-May-2017 10:58

surfisup1000:

Rikkitic:

Then of course there is always the bible:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2015/01/22/yes-the-bible-does-say-to-kill-infidels/

Exactly, and many atrocities were committed in the name of the bible. Thankfully things like the magna carta came along.

Religion is an enabler , especially when you get a group of people in an echo box encouraging each other.

It enables people who are intolerant, to have an avenue to express their intolerance of others. Still comes back to intolerance.

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#1788038 25-May-2017 10:59

surfisup1000:

Rikkitic:

Then of course there is always the bible:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2015/01/22/yes-the-bible-does-say-to-kill-infidels/

Exactly, and many atrocities were committed in the name of the bible. Thankfully things like the magna carta came along.

Religion is an enabler , especially when you get a group of people in an echo box encouraging each other.

If a doctor tells you to eat fish and chips and nothing else would you do all of it?

If a doctor tells you to stop smoking, exercise, sleep early and eat veges would you do all of it?

Should we ban doctors?

If no & no then why don't you listen to the doctor?

If a group tells you to commit mass atrocities would you do it?

If a group tells you to donate your time and money to help to poor and the helpless would you do it?

Should we just ban groups anyway? Don't talk to anyone. Ban the internet.

If no & no, then why when people tell you to do charity or good work you will go to heaven, people don't go and do them? But when your peers encourage you to bully the poor boy beside you, instant compliance.

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#1788040 25-May-2017 11:02

surfisup1000:

Fred99:

surfisup1000:

The islamic terrorist gets their authority from the Koran which describes their religious obligations. One of those obligations is to carry out suicide bombings (kill infidels) and the koran promises they will fly to heaven and get 72 virgins (or lush life depending on translation).

What a load of twaddle.

[snip] Koran quotes

It is clearly ridiculous to think these bombings have nothing to do with religion.

I'm not entirely sure that anyone is saying they have *nothing* to do with religion. Certainly I'm not.

Reflecting on this, my view is that religion is an enabler of (and perhaps pretext for) action against social inequality.

It does seem that, where there is no discrimination based on ethnicity and/or race and/or other things, there is little in the way of religious strife. (I would welcome any contradictory examples for further examination of this idea). However, when those things do exist, then victims can point to their selected religious text and claim authority to fight back in ways that are proscribed (legal, social restrictions) otherwise. The ultimate expression of this is suicide attacks, where the person believes that the best (only?) way to make change is to kill themselves.

"It's a jihad/crusade/pogrom/revolution/whatever, so it's now OK for me to kill/rob/enslave/whatever those people that I want to kill/rob/enslave/whatever."

Let's not forget that in wars, typically all sides claim that God is on their side. In my cynical view, that's to give their soldiers the "moral authority" to do immoral things.

Rikkitic

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#1788041 25-May-2017 11:03

Are you saying that people are just nasty? Some certainly are. Others, like those in Manchester, opened their doors to the victims. I would be willing to bet some of those door openers were of the Muslim faith.

Edit: Sorry, responding to Joker97 and too lazy to quote.

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