Maori Seats

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#1825947 20-Jul-2017 15:27

Wiggum:

Nothing wrong with this. The problem is picking these people based on their race and culture. The "maori Electives", the "maori All Black team", the "maori only scholorships" etc etc ...

In the mind of some who don't accept that being white has automatically given them privileges as a ruling majority, or if they do accept it, then want to preserve that privilege.

This argument has been thrashed many times. I'm glad you're on the losing team with a minority view, even if it doesn't seem that way on talkback radio.

frankv

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#1825952 20-Jul-2017 15:35

eph:

All those in favour of Maori seats (and their other privileges) make it sound like Maori are the poorest, most disadvantaged ethnic group in NZ.

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

Right... so you would advocate giving all those "Maori privileges" to poor white families and poor Pasifika families and poor Indian families and poor Vietnamese families and poor families of whatever race?

6FIEND

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#1825955 20-Jul-2017 15:37

frankv:

This is where we differ...

Let's agree to disagree, rather than engaging in a point by point debate :-)

But just one thing:

frankv:

I don't think there's any evidence that they have "an entrenched belief that Maori couldn't possibly function in the modern world without special dispensations". But perhaps this is something that *you* have an entrenched belief about?

Really? Look at the firestorm that's just kicked off at the mere suggestion that NZ holds a referendum to remove one of those special dispensations. Even one that's out-lived it's original intent by more than a hundred years. Even within this GZ thread, for example. You'll find plenty of evidence to support my assertion if you care to look.

Perhaps you might enlighten me by pointing to an example of positive discrimination where Maori have collectively said - Thanks, we were "in a bit of a hole, and need(ed) a bit of assistance to get back onto even terms" but we don't need this special treatment any more.

Wiggum

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#1825956 20-Jul-2017 15:38

Fred99:

Wiggum:

Nothing wrong with this. The problem is picking these people based on their race and culture. The "maori Electives", the "maori All Black team", the "maori only scholorships" etc etc ...

In the mind of some who don't accept that being white has automatically given them privileges as a ruling majority, or if they do accept it, then want to preserve that privilege.

This argument has been thrashed many times. I'm glad you're on the losing team with a minority view, even if it doesn't seem that way on talkback radio.

If a referendum is held for the future of the seats, the seats are as good as gone. Mark my words on that, come back and quote me after the elections, or when such a referendum takes place. Support is growing for the seats to be abolished. Now even Winston is on board, who would have thought.

MikeB4

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#1825958 20-Jul-2017 15:40

eph:

All those in favour of Maori seats (and their other privileges) make it sound like Maori are the poorest, most disadvantaged ethnic group in NZ.

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

Maori are the Tangata Whenua.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Wiggum

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#1825965 20-Jul-2017 15:49

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

I know many many people that have arrived here in NZ from other countries with nothing but the clothes on their back.

No welfare or treaty to protect them. Just a will to make something out of their lives for themselves and their families.

I know many such people, they shinning examples to most Kiwis. Some are already even living in their own homes (which they have saved for and bought since arriving in NZ). If these people don't need special treatment, I really struggle to understand why Maori do.

Same goes for Kiwis in Aus. There are no special privileges there for Maori and Kiwi (apart from residency). They can't vote, yet they seem to manage mostly OK. Things there can't be that bad (yes there is a lot of moaning about lack of privileges etc), but they remain in Aus because its still mostly better than NZ. NZ is paredise for Polynesian people, and for mostly everybody coming from overseas without having the privilege of a benefit.

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MikeB4

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#1825973 20-Jul-2017 15:56

Wiggum:

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

I know many many people that have arrived here in NZ from other countries with nothing but the clothes on their back.

No welfare or treaty to protect them. Just a will to make something out of their lives for themselves and their families.

I know many such people, they shinning examples to most Kiwis. Some are already even living in their own homes (which they have saved for and bought since arriving in NZ). If these people don't need special treatment, I really struggle to understand why Maori do.

Same goes for Kiwis in Aus. There are no special privileges there for Maori and Kiwi (apart from residency). They can't vote, yet they seem to manage mostly OK. Things there can't be that bad (yes there is a lot of moaning about lack of privileges etc), but they remain in Aus because its still mostly better than NZ. NZ is paredise for Polynesian people, and for mostly everybody coming from overseas without having the privilege of a benefit.

You are spouting uninformed rubbish. Take it from someone who spent more than thirty years working in Social Services you clearly have no idea about social issues.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Wiggum

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#1825976 20-Jul-2017 15:59

MikeB4:

Wiggum:

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

I know many many people that have arrived here in NZ from other countries with nothing but the clothes on their back.

No welfare or treaty to protect them. Just a will to make something out of their lives for themselves and their families.

I know many such people, they shinning examples to most Kiwis. Some are already even living in their own homes (which they have saved for and bought since arriving in NZ). If these people don't need special treatment, I really struggle to understand why Maori do.

Same goes for Kiwis in Aus. There are no special privileges there for Maori and Kiwi (apart from residency). They can't vote, yet they seem to manage mostly OK. Things there can't be that bad (yes there is a lot of moaning about lack of privileges etc), but they remain in Aus because its still mostly better than NZ. NZ is paredise for Polynesian people, and for mostly everybody coming from overseas without having the privilege of a benefit.

You are spouting uninformed rubbish. Take it from someone who spent more than thirty years working in Social Services you clearly have no idea about social issues.

People who arrive in NZ on working visa's dont qualify for social services. So your point means nothing.

frankv

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#1825978 20-Jul-2017 16:02

6FIEND:

frankv:

This is where we differ...

Let's agree to disagree, rather than engaging in a point by point debate :-)

But just one thing:

frankv:

I don't think there's any evidence that they have "an entrenched belief that Maori couldn't possibly function in the modern world without special dispensations". But perhaps this is something that *you* have an entrenched belief about?

Really? Look at the firestorm that's just kicked off at the mere suggestion that NZ holds a referendum to remove one of those special dispensations. Even one that's out-lived it's original intent by more than a hundred years. Even within this GZ thread, for example. You'll find plenty of evidence to support my assertion if you care to look.

Perhaps you might enlighten me by pointing to an example of positive discrimination where Maori have collectively said - Thanks, we were "in a bit of a hole, and need(ed) a bit of assistance to get back onto even terms" but we don't need this special treatment any more.

We don't AFAIK have anyone here who is a Maori or representing the Maori point of view. So your statement that "they [Maori] have an entrenched belief that Maori couldn't possibly function in the modern world without special dispensations" is completely baseless. Or were you not making that statement about Maori?

The fact that the original reason for establishing Maori seats is obsolete doesn't mean that Maori seats aren't still a good idea. What's got me riled up is not the suggestion that NZ holds a referendum to remove them, but the paternalism of labelling of them as "dispensations" and the outright falsehood of "Maori privilege".

There are plenty of example of Maori-owned enterprises thriving once set up with an injection of capital. Sealord. Whalewatch Kaikoura.

MikeB4

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#1825980 20-Jul-2017 16:05

Wiggum:

MikeB4:

Wiggum:

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

I know many many people that have arrived here in NZ from other countries with nothing but the clothes on their back.

No welfare or treaty to protect them. Just a will to make something out of their lives for themselves and their families.

I know many such people, they shinning examples to most Kiwis. Some are already even living in their own homes (which they have saved for and bought since arriving in NZ). If these people don't need special treatment, I really struggle to understand why Maori do.

Same goes for Kiwis in Aus. There are no special privileges there for Maori and Kiwi (apart from residency). They can't vote, yet they seem to manage mostly OK. Things there can't be that bad (yes there is a lot of moaning about lack of privileges etc), but they remain in Aus because its still mostly better than NZ. NZ is paredise for Polynesian people, and for mostly everybody coming from overseas without having the privilege of a benefit.

You are spouting uninformed rubbish. Take it from someone who spent more than thirty years working in Social Services you clearly have no idea about social issues.

People who arrive in NZ on working visa's dont qualify for social services. So your point means nothing.

I am referring to all your posts on Maori. I will leave it at that I am tired of this nonsense

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Wiggum

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#1825983 20-Jul-2017 16:06

MikeB4:

I am referring to all your posts on Maori. I will leave it at that I am tired of this nonsense

Next time it may be best to quote my actual post. Instead of quoting one, and referring to others.

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eph

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#1825986 20-Jul-2017 16:15

frankv:

Right... so you would advocate giving all those "Maori privileges" to poor white families and poor Pasifika families and poor Indian families and poor Vietnamese families and poor families of whatever race?

No, I wouldn't advocate any privileges based on race/colour/"time of arrival"/etc.

Just expressing my feeling from the discussion...

eph

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#1825995 20-Jul-2017 16:29

MikeB4:

Maori are the Tangata Whenua.

Do you mean that as those who came first? Why would that be a reason for special treatment? I would understand that if Maori were somehow disadvantaged (based on that fact) from the rest (where rest is not just Pakeha but all other ethnicities living in NZ). But I don't believe that's true (though of course I'm not expert and might well be wrong).

cadman

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#1826245 20-Jul-2017 22:05

MikeB4:

eph:

All those in favour of Maori seats (and their other privileges) make it sound like Maori are the poorest, most disadvantaged ethnic group in NZ.

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

Maori are the Tangata Whenua.

This is a perfect example of meaningless twaddle. So what?

MikeB4

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#1826249 20-Jul-2017 22:11

cadman:
MikeB4:

eph:

All those in favour of Maori seats (and their other privileges) make it sound like Maori are the poorest, most disadvantaged ethnic group in NZ.

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...

Maori are the Tangata Whenua.

This is a perfect example of meaningless twaddle. So what?

I will help you out with the meaning then......

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangata_whenua

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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