North and South Korea talks

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#2036098 13-Jun-2018 18:52

MikeB4:

I really hope that Trump and Kim have really has pulled this off

So do I, but I think we just saw a "Chamberlain moment".

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#2036099 13-Jun-2018 18:52

Great little propaganda meeting between the two.

Now they can both go home and BS the people how they got what they wanted.

And half the people will believe it.

MikeB4

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#2036100 13-Jun-2018 18:55

Fred99:

MikeB4:

I really hope that Trump and Kim have really has pulled this off

So do I, but I think we just saw a "Chamberlain moment".

I did think peace in our times. Did Trump wave a piece of paper?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

DaveB

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#2036102 13-Jun-2018 18:59

MikeB4:

DaveB:

Fred99:

I don't share your confidence.

There are two types of people in life. Negative thinkers and Positive thinkers. Winners and Losers. This world needs to move forward.

I really hope that Trump and Kim have really has pulled this off

Me too Mike. For too long we have been conditioned on how things should be done.

Trump goes against the conventional way of doing things. And that makes us nervous, petty and vocal. Fair enough.

And perhaps Kim, being the 3rd generation of a Dynasty, has taken stock of his country and possibly realized that a dynasty that he was forced to accept by birth is not in the best interests for the country that he has been forced to head?

Maybe we slowly learning to accept that possible roads forward are better than Liberal moaning?

Fred99

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#2036103 13-Jun-2018 19:01

MikeB4:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

I really hope that Trump and Kim have really has pulled this off

So do I, but I think we just saw a "Chamberlain moment".

I did think peace in our times. Did Trump wave a piece of paper?

Absolutely he did. There was nothing of any substance written on it, but the crowd cheered anyway.

Fred99

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#2036105 13-Jun-2018 19:08

DaveB:

Maybe we slowly learning to accept that possible roads forward are better than Liberal moaning?

You sound just like a Russian troll when you make statements like that!

I don't see that critique of the negotiation between a murderous despotic tyrant and a dirty populist liar needs to be seen as either "liberal" or "moaning".

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#2036106 13-Jun-2018 19:10

DaveB:

Me too Mike. For too long we have been conditioned on how things should be done.

Trump goes against the conventional way of doing things. And that makes us nervous, petty and vocal. Fair enough.

And perhaps Kim, being the 3rd generation of a Dynasty, has taken stock of his country and possibly realized that a dynasty that he was forced to accept by birth is not in the best interests for the country that he has been forced to head?

Maybe we slowly learning to accept that possible roads forward are better than Liberal moaning?

Trump is a dangerous fool and that is what makes me nervous. There is difference between being unconventional and being stupid. Like others I do hope he pulls it off. If he actually does, I will swallow my detestation of him and concede that has has done a good thing. But it is way to early to draw that conclusion.

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#2036109 13-Jun-2018 19:21

Fred99:

DaveB:

Maybe we slowly learning to accept that possible roads forward are better than Liberal moaning?

You sound just like a Russian troll when you make statements like that!

I don't see that critique of the negotiation between a murderous despotic tyrant and a dirty populist liar needs to be seen as either "liberal" or "moaning".

ROFLMFO

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Fred99

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#2036126 13-Jun-2018 19:37

DaveB:

Fred99:

DaveB:

Maybe we slowly learning to accept that possible roads forward are better than Liberal moaning?

You sound just like a Russian troll when you make statements like that!

I don't see that critique of the negotiation between a murderous despotic tyrant and a dirty populist liar needs to be seen as either "liberal" or "moaning".

ROFLMFO

Остров Южный?

Calm down - I didn't say you are a Russian Troll. Just that you sound like it in the example above. I'll correct that - and say that I've never heard your voice - so let's agree that you "read" like a Russian Troll.

Of course you aren't. But you do need to be careful you're not being gaslighted - they're very very good at that.

tdgeek

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#2036128 13-Jun-2018 19:42

Fred99:

I don't share your confidence.

KCNA has apparently announced (to their people) that sanctions are being removed, and that full denuclearisation of the peninsula is going to happen.

China has also stated that they want sanctions eased - now.

I believe it's a set up by KJU to get sanctions removed, and with Bolton involved, it's almost unthinkable that anything short of surrender by NK would be a satisfactory outcome.

That's only going to strengthen China:NK relations and resolve to get the US out of the region.

"We'll see".

If KJU has put forward "his" views of the talks, thats fine. Sanctions are being removed, thats correct. If he wants to infer now, well, thats his problem. The US has no nukes on the peninsula, they used to, but again, thats another detail that is likely to cause ripples. If that causes rifts with the US, thats fine, I expect that to happen as I posted.

China has actually been reducing sanctions in the last two months. I think the reason was issues with Trump. Russia has been sneaky as well. Its been stated clearly that sanctions will remain in place until NK dismantles far enough, as per the press conference.

But yes, I can see issues like these, and that should the US play tough, then others can step in. What I am confident about is that while the summit was NK and US, the US isnt the be all and end all. Not that they will think that

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#2036135 13-Jun-2018 19:50

DaveB:

MikeB4:

DaveB:

Fred99:

I don't share your confidence.

There are two types of people in life. Negative thinkers and Positive thinkers. Winners and Losers. This world needs to move forward.

I really hope that Trump and Kim have really has pulled this off

Me too Mike. For too long we have been conditioned on how things should be done.

Trump goes against the conventional way of doing things. And that makes us nervous, petty and vocal. Fair enough.

And perhaps Kim, being the 3rd generation of a Dynasty, has taken stock of his country and possibly realized that a dynasty that he was forced to accept by birth is not in the best interests for the country that he has been forced to head?

Maybe we slowly learning to accept that possible roads forward are better than Liberal moaning?

I dont put this down to Trump,nor to Liberal moaning. I out it down to NK has completed its target, it is in a position to secure its regime, and its now time to play. His regime is and was already secure, backed by China and Russia, who dont want a US friendly NK. They will secure the regime. The US thinks that Trumps fire and fury and sanctions are the reason why NK has folded, thats rubbish. NK hasn't folded. Now that they are holding aces, time to play. Its a bonus that Trump being an idiot, and an extra bonus that he walked over G7, that KJU can be "nice" when things go belly up with the US, there are plenty of other countries who wants peace there. They can take over talks. The US is not needed

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tdgeek

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#2036137 13-Jun-2018 19:54

Rikkitic:

DaveB:

Me too Mike. For too long we have been conditioned on how things should be done.

Trump goes against the conventional way of doing things. And that makes us nervous, petty and vocal. Fair enough.

And perhaps Kim, being the 3rd generation of a Dynasty, has taken stock of his country and possibly realized that a dynasty that he was forced to accept by birth is not in the best interests for the country that he has been forced to head?

Maybe we slowly learning to accept that possible roads forward are better than Liberal moaning?

Trump is a dangerous fool and that is what makes me nervous. There is difference between being unconventional and being stupid. Like others I do hope he pulls it off. If he actually does, I will swallow my detestation of him and concede that has has done a good thing. But it is way to early to draw that conclusion.

If it was Clinton, Obama , or anyone else, this would still be happening. I cant get how many in the media see this as a Trump created meeting. It has been created by SK, and NK. Started with the Olympics, Moon has been a huge part of this. I expect Trump to bully when its not going swimmingly and then it goes to SK and China to continue the process.

Fred99

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#2036203 13-Jun-2018 21:24

tdgeek:

If it was Clinton, Obama , or anyone else, this would still be happening.

Nope - not even if it was George W Bush.

MikeAqua

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#2036458 14-Jun-2018 11:52

The Trump Kim meeting is promising but insubstantial. Yet it signifies more progress than any other president has made. We will see if that lasts. It could be a Chamberlain moment. Although Chamberlain's mistake was trying to appease an aggressively expansionist empire builder. Kim doesn';t seem to have any expansion ambitions.

So far the only concession from Trump seems to be agreeing to stop military operations with SK. That would seem to be a small price. In his post summit interview with ABC Trump, displayed restraint with his words and some empathy toward Kim. Of course the switch can flip and deploy destructive tweets any time.

Perhaps Trump is (paradoxically) the man for the hour. His at times aggressive approach may give Kim concern that America really would attack NK. Kim doesn't want that - he would lose, badly. That may be enough incentive for him to seek peace.

Trump also seems to be dangling economic development within NK as bait. The people of NK could certainly benefit from that, although it's not clear how a totalitarian regime would allow economic development without abandoning core and long held narratives. Unusually, NK 'news' agencies reported on Kim's trip while he was still in Singapore.

On balance ... fingers crossed, for peace.

Mike

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#2037586 14-Jun-2018 16:38

MikeAqua:

The Trump Kim meeting is promising but insubstantial. Yet it signifies more progress than any other president has made. We will see if that lasts. It could be a Chamberlain moment. Although Chamberlain's mistake was trying to appease an aggressively expansionist empire builder. Kim doesn';t seem to have any expansion ambitions.

So far the only concession from Trump seems to be agreeing to stop military operations with SK. That would seem to be a small price. In his post summit interview with ABC Trump, displayed restraint with his words and some empathy toward Kim. Of course the switch can flip and deploy destructive tweets any time.

Perhaps Trump is (paradoxically) the man for the hour. His at times aggressive approach may give Kim concern that America really would attack NK. Kim doesn't want that - he would lose, badly. That may be enough incentive for him to seek peace.

Trump also seems to be dangling economic development within NK as bait. The people of NK could certainly benefit from that, although it's not clear how a totalitarian regime would allow economic development without abandoning core and long held narratives. Unusually, NK 'news' agencies reported on Kim's trip while he was still in Singapore.

On balance ... fingers crossed, for peace.

I generally agree.

IMO this is not a Trump meeting, its solely a Kim meeting. 110%. Either he or SK started talking prior to the Olympics. Then they competed as one Korea, had delegations meet, and KJU and Moon met at the border. KJU says he will meet Trump, Trump agreed. Thats how this meeting took place.

The issue over insubstantive doesnt wash with me. Its the first meeting. As to the denuclearisation issue, Trump spelt that out in detail in the press conference. Disarmament, inspections. He said that to the world, which includes NK. That will need to be substantive in coming weeks or a few months.

As to the deal, it is heavily in favour of the US.

-Ceasing military exercises. Not hard. Logistical issues to train, but IIRC the US advised NK who had already suspended testing that they are holding an exercise, but not near NK. Pretty sure of that.

-Parity and Recognition. Big for NK but easy for US, just buy 6 NK flags to equal 6 US flags, equal height, walk through doors equally. very easy.

-cease testing, easy, already doing that

- Send remains back, easy.

-DENUCLEARISATION This is huge, its the only asset that NK has, that they have to protect themselves

So, NK has played its only big card, the US has offered little. Why? NK despite what they say, are fully protected by China and Russia, both of whom want a red border that is US free. So, NK will remove nukes (probably, possibly, maybe not) and while it wont get the usual food, oil and cash, it will get rebuild help from China and SK, and probably Japan, and possibly other countries. For free.

For the West, its still a win, a cheap win really

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