NZ gun laws

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#2200488 17-Mar-2019 22:33

Handle9:

Fred99:

tdgeek:

thats what David Tipple is like. His press conference tomorrow will be of interest.

Actually IMO the press should boycott it. He's trolling with that ad. The best thing to do with trolls is ignore them - if you can't ban them.

IMO you let them talk in public and they expose themselves for what they are. As soon as you ask a sensible question they start talking about their lunatic views.

Given the mood of most sensible people Gun City trolling would remove all sympathy from the gun industry. They would expose themselves as zealots.

He's no fool. Who came off best when HDPA exposed our crappy ineffective gun laws *with intent to improve the situation and cause no harm* ? I'd say he did, people were arguing with him, that HDPA was a criminal who should be locked up.

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#2200494 17-Mar-2019 22:56

Fred99:
tdgeek:

I think that would be wrong, for a number of reasons. Aside from the wild boy he has always been (and yes many always wondered how he kept intact with his flirting with Police over decades), he can't be condemned because he sells his product. His product is used by normal people.

BUT, if he plays hard ball he will alienate his industry, and thats not a bad thing, possibly indirectly make the gun review harsher for firearms owners. Should he say and do what's right, that would help a gun review progress.

He will make it or break it.

You realise how absurd that is, to argue that to use your understatement that he is a "wild boy" and "flirting with police over decades" - then suggesting that he should be given a platform to express pro-gun arguments as someone "qualified", when for ordinary people *not having a wide and politically influential support base*, then having a record like his would probably permanently exclude us from obtaining a firearms licence under existing laws.

It’s not absurd. Yes he is wild, although if you met him that’s not obvious. He is a family man. The police do not have enough issue with him to stop him dealing or holding a firearms license. Call him a ratbag. My point is that his business is legal, it’s not dodgy, so I’d like to hear his views , given that his business and every other is now in the spotlight. If he causes consternation then that’s fine with me, it will cause gun laws to be tightened further. There are a large number of businesses that sell guns, to a large number of normal people. They didn’t cause Friday. A review of firearms laws will be a step forward though. I assume it’s illegal to sell magazines and pistol grips that turn these guns back to MSSA.

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#2200497 17-Mar-2019 23:52

tdgeek:
Fred99:

tdgeek:

I think that would be wrong, for a number of reasons. Aside from the wild boy he has always been (and yes many always wondered how he kept intact with his flirting with Police over decades), he can't be condemned because he sells his product. His product is used by normal people.

BUT, if he plays hard ball he will alienate his industry, and thats not a bad thing, possibly indirectly make the gun review harsher for firearms owners. Should he say and do what's right, that would help a gun review progress.

He will make it or break it.

You realise how absurd that is, to argue that to use your understatement that he is a "wild boy" and "flirting with police over decades" - then suggesting that he should be given a platform to express pro-gun arguments as someone "qualified", when for ordinary people *not having a wide and politically influential support base*, then having a record like his would probably permanently exclude us from obtaining a firearms licence under existing laws.

It’s not absurd. Yes he is wild, although if you met him that’s not obvious. He is a family man. The police do not have enough issue with him to stop him dealing or holding a firearms license. Call him a ratbag. My point is that his business is legal, it’s not dodgy, so I’d like to hear his views , given that his business and every other is now in the spotlight. If he causes consternation then that’s fine with me, it will cause gun laws to be tightened further. There are a large number of businesses that sell guns, to a large number of normal people. They didn’t cause Friday. A review of firearms laws will be a step forward though. I assume it’s illegal to sell magazines and pistol grips that turn these guns back to MSSA.

That's pathetic. He'll be out to create division and to rally support. No it's not illegal to sell the magazines etc. Have you been asleep and just pop in to the thread to offer useless opinion without reading back a few posts?

As for "They didn't cause Friday". Over coming weeks, months, and years, that's going to be used to defend every single thing which combined - did cause Friday.

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#2200501 18-Mar-2019 00:53

tdgeek: It’s not absurd. Yes he is wild, although if you met him that’s not obvious. He is a family man. The police do not have enough issue with him to stop him dealing or holding a firearms license. Call him a ratbag. My point is that his business is legal, it’s not dodgy, so I’d like to hear his views , given that his business and every other is now in the spotlight. If he causes consternation then that’s fine with me, it will cause gun laws to be tightened further. There are a large number of businesses that sell guns, to a large number of normal people. They didn’t cause Friday. A review of firearms laws will be a step forward though. I assume it’s illegal to sell magazines and pistol grips that turn these guns back to MSSA.

It's really hard to fathom what kind of argument you're trying to make. The mere fact that someone of that douchebag's record is able to sell guns (also I just am not prepared to believe that someone who has consistently shown a flagrant disregard for the law will nonetheless be interested in obeying the complexities of firearm laws in full) tells me that either our laws stink or the police were asleep at the wheel as the enforcer of the Arms Act.

And the endless reinforcement of a narrative that gun shops/gun nuts/a-holes didn't cause Friday takes an extraordinarily narrow view of the issues. Sure, you probably can't pin X gun shop and Y gun nut as directly or sufficiently proximately responsible for what one loser did so as to make them criminally culpable and/or as deserving of the most horrible thoughts that people would have for the shooter. But it doesn't mean that those people's contributions to the social mores, general proliferation of guns, and the futility of previous gun reform efforts (which collectively made the shooter's "job" so much easier) are not worthy of being remarked upon and seriously considered. What conclusions you want to draw for yourself is your business. However, I would suggest that unless you are wanting to sink to the level of adopting NRA-favoured arguments, points that are really not much better than their usual dog-whistle of "Guns don't kill people; people do" aren't the way to go forward.

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#2200510 18-Mar-2019 06:55

tdgeek: It’s not absurd. Yes he is wild, although if you met him that’s not obvious. He is a family man. The police do not have enough issue with him to stop him dealing or holding a firearms license. Call him a ratbag. My point is that his business is legal, it’s not dodgy, so I’d like to hear his views , given that his business and every other is now in the spotlight. If he causes consternation then that’s fine with me, it will cause gun laws to be tightened further. There are a large number of businesses that sell guns, to a large number of normal people. They didn’t cause Friday. A review of firearms laws will be a step forward though. I assume it’s illegal to sell magazines and pistol grips that turn these guns back to MSSA.

Blocks to the family man and ratbag nonsense. In 2016 he was pulled over by police and warned for dangerous driving. His mature response as a "family man": proceed to speed at around 180km/hr.

"It beggars belief that you had been spoken to by police in relation to the manner of your driving, and then within a very short space of time, you carried on to drive at the speed you were clocked at," Judge Gilbert said.

He's got multiple convictions, including firearms convictions. This isn't a 20 year old idiot who hasn't grown up, this is an older guy who just doesn't give a sh#t about society.

If he was 23 and Maori then there would be public outrage about his car not being impounded for the speeding. If he was Muslim the firearms conviction would have caused outrage if he was able to sell guns.

Just because he fits the image of a "family man" doesn't excuse his behaviour.

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#2200514 18-Mar-2019 07:19

Fred99:

tdgeek:
Fred99:

tdgeek:

I think that would be wrong, for a number of reasons. Aside from the wild boy he has always been (and yes many always wondered how he kept intact with his flirting with Police over decades), he can't be condemned because he sells his product. His product is used by normal people.

BUT, if he plays hard ball he will alienate his industry, and thats not a bad thing, possibly indirectly make the gun review harsher for firearms owners. Should he say and do what's right, that would help a gun review progress.

He will make it or break it.

You realise how absurd that is, to argue that to use your understatement that he is a "wild boy" and "flirting with police over decades" - then suggesting that he should be given a platform to express pro-gun arguments as someone "qualified", when for ordinary people *not having a wide and politically influential support base*, then having a record like his would probably permanently exclude us from obtaining a firearms licence under existing laws.

It’s not absurd. Yes he is wild, although if you met him that’s not obvious. He is a family man. The police do not have enough issue with him to stop him dealing or holding a firearms license. Call him a ratbag. My point is that his business is legal, it’s not dodgy, so I’d like to hear his views , given that his business and every other is now in the spotlight. If he causes consternation then that’s fine with me, it will cause gun laws to be tightened further. There are a large number of businesses that sell guns, to a large number of normal people. They didn’t cause Friday. A review of firearms laws will be a step forward though. I assume it’s illegal to sell magazines and pistol grips that turn these guns back to MSSA.

That's pathetic. He'll be out to create division and to rally support. No it's not illegal to sell the magazines etc. Have you been asleep and just pop in to the thread to offer useless opinion without reading back a few posts?

As for "They didn't cause Friday". Over coming weeks, months, and years, that's going to be used to defend every single thing which combined - did cause Friday.

In that case you may as well defend the stupid argument comparing guns to cars, if you want to blame the firearms industry as well as owners who I guess are mainly zealots. Maybe Mike is correct when he said ban all firearms. After all it cant be a people issue its an issue over a piece of evil metal it seems

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#2200517 18-Mar-2019 07:31

dejadeadnz:

tdgeek: It’s not absurd. Yes he is wild, although if you met him that’s not obvious. He is a family man. The police do not have enough issue with him to stop him dealing or holding a firearms license. Call him a ratbag. My point is that his business is legal, it’s not dodgy, so I’d like to hear his views , given that his business and every other is now in the spotlight. If he causes consternation then that’s fine with me, it will cause gun laws to be tightened further. There are a large number of businesses that sell guns, to a large number of normal people. They didn’t cause Friday. A review of firearms laws will be a step forward though. I assume it’s illegal to sell magazines and pistol grips that turn these guns back to MSSA.

It's really hard to fathom what kind of argument you're trying to make. The mere fact that someone of that douchebag's record is able to sell guns (also I just am not prepared to believe that someone who has consistently shown a flagrant disregard for the law will nonetheless be interested in obeying the complexities of firearm laws in full) tells me that either our laws stink or the police were asleep at the wheel as the enforcer of the Arms Act.

And the endless reinforcement of a narrative that gun shops/gun nuts/a-holes didn't cause Friday takes an extraordinarily narrow view of the issues. Sure, you probably can't pin X gun shop and Y gun nut as directly or sufficiently proximately responsible for what one loser did so as to make them criminally culpable and/or as deserving of the most horrible thoughts that people would have for the shooter. But it doesn't mean that those people's contributions to the social mores, general proliferation of guns, and the futility of previous gun reform efforts (which collectively made the shooter's "job" so much easier) are not worthy of being remarked upon and seriously considered. What conclusions you want to draw for yourself is your business. However, I would suggest that unless you are wanting to sink to the level of adopting NRA-favoured arguments, points that are really not much better than their usual dog-whistle of "Guns don't kill people; people do" aren't the way to go forward.

Ok fine

I'm merely suggesting that firearms operators are not the prime cause nor are the tens of thousands of genuine people that use firearms, but clearly they must mainly be all zealots and NRA like. And Tipple and my opinion of wanting to hear him defend himself isn't accepted. I guess its fine to label all firearms dealers and gun owners as the problem. Dont suggest to me I support NRA.

You yourself support the dog whistle of guns don't kill people, people do. Your recent lengthy thread covering whats wrong in our society and what needs to happen, which I agree with

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#2200519 18-Mar-2019 07:40

Handle9:
tdgeek: It’s not absurd. Yes he is wild, although if you met him that’s not obvious. He is a family man. The police do not have enough issue with him to stop him dealing or holding a firearms license. Call him a ratbag. My point is that his business is legal, it’s not dodgy, so I’d like to hear his views , given that his business and every other is now in the spotlight. If he causes consternation then that’s fine with me, it will cause gun laws to be tightened further. There are a large number of businesses that sell guns, to a large number of normal people. They didn’t cause Friday. A review of firearms laws will be a step forward though. I assume it’s illegal to sell magazines and pistol grips that turn these guns back to MSSA.

Blocks to the family man and ratbag nonsense. In 2016 he was pulled over by police and warned for dangerous driving. His mature response as a "family man": proceed to speed at around 180km/hr.

"It beggars belief that you had been spoken to by police in relation to the manner of your driving, and then within a very short space of time, you carried on to drive at the speed you were clocked at," Judge Gilbert said.

He's got multiple convictions, including firearms convictions. This isn't a 20 year old idiot who hasn't grown up, this is an older guy who just doesn't give a sh#t about society.

If he was 23 and Maori then there would be public outrage about his car not being impounded for the speeding. If he was Muslim the firearms conviction would have caused outrage if he was able to sell guns.

Just because he fits the image of a "family man" doesn't excuse his behaviour.

I haven't excused his behaviour. I have just stated the facts that any Cantabrian who is/was into the outdoors is well aware of. Ive also asked why the Police have let him operate for decades. Given that he is a legitimate business owner in a sector that is now topical, he has a right to explain himself re the sign. And his opinion on the future as regards gun laws. Does he not have that right? It seems not. It also seems that his peers and gun owners are mainly zealots, and thats wrong. If gun laws need to change I support that as I have mentioned. But lets just avoid being fair and judge the tens of thousands who own or sell firearms

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#2200522 18-Mar-2019 07:49

Somebody has descended to peppering strawman arguments all over the place.

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#2200523 18-Mar-2019 07:50

Where did I judge the tens of thousands who own or sell firearms? I judged Tipple as an individual. What part of that is unclear?

A friend of mine posted below on Facebook yesterday. He loves shooting and has invested a lot of time and money into it. This is how a responsible and reasonable person thinks. This is pretty different from Tipple.

I am absolutely horrified that someone could shoot innocents. I can get War , not this.

I have an AR15. I also have an E-Cat licence and high capacity magazines for it. I use it for deer shooting and it’s fun.
My neighbours would probably be a tad nervous knowing the potential sitting in my safe.
I knew yesterday 2 seconds after hearing what had happened(as did most intelligent gun owners) that the Government would be coming for my Rifle. I also took calls and txts from friends asking for advice about their guns and more than one talked of burying theirs in the garden.
No matter what you say to me you will never change my opinion.
An AR (Automatic Rifle) 15 is a weapon of war, it’s the biggest selling firearm in the world and it’s easy to use , clean and unfortunately Kill.
I will happily give up my gun on a buy back scheme.
I also have an 8 shot semi auto shotgun that I use all year for Geese. They perp used a semi auto shotgun.
I will be very reluctant to give this up. Its a great piece of kit, i shoot well with it and it is necessary to harvest the most geese at one time.
Taking my rifle is the right thing to do. My Shotgun maybe not.
But I will comply with whatever decision.

This is my prediction, banning these weapons will not stop what happened. It will make it harder, yes but there will be underground weapons.
In fact I would be astonished if there was not a massive spike in sales yesterday at Gun shops of Guns, high capacity Mags and Ammo

Just my 10 cents

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#2200525 18-Mar-2019 07:57

dejadeadnz: Somebody has descended to peppering strawman arguments all over the place.

Or avoiding what was said and chooses not to reply?

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#2200527 18-Mar-2019 08:07

Handle9: Where did I judge the tens of thousands who own or sell firearms? I judged Tipple as an individual. What part of that is unclear?

A friend of mine posted below on Facebook yesterday. He loves shooting and has invested a lot of time and money into it. This is how a responsible and reasonable person thinks. This is pretty different from Tipple.

I am absolutely horrified that someone could shoot innocents. I can get War , not this.

I have an AR15. I also have an E-Cat licence and high capacity magazines for it. I use it for deer shooting and it’s fun.
My neighbours would probably be a tad nervous knowing the potential sitting in my safe.
I knew yesterday 2 seconds after hearing what had happened(as did most intelligent gun owners) that the Government would be coming for my Rifle. I also took calls and txts from friends asking for advice about their guns and more than one talked of burying theirs in the garden.
No matter what you say to me you will never change my opinion.
An AR (Automatic Rifle) 15 is a weapon of war, it’s the biggest selling firearm in the world and it’s easy to use , clean and unfortunately Kill.
I will happily give up my gun on a buy back scheme.
I also have an 8 shot semi auto shotgun that I use all year for Geese. They perp used a semi auto shotgun.
I will be very reluctant to give this up. Its a great piece of kit, i shoot well with it and it is necessary to harvest the most geese at one time.
Taking my rifle is the right thing to do. My Shotgun maybe not.
But I will comply with whatever decision.

This is my prediction, banning these weapons will not stop what happened. It will make it harder, yes but there will be underground weapons.
In fact I would be astonished if there was not a massive spike in sales yesterday at Gun shops of Guns, high capacity Mags and Ammo

Just my 10 cents

This thread has at times treated sellers and users as a problem, NRA like and so forth. As Ive said that is not the case for tens of thousands of them, they are not default zealots. The attacks on me are all because I want to hear the response from Tipple. Where I have already mentioned if he wants to pay hardball thats a good thing, the gun law review will be harsher. I agree with your mate. I had not disimilar weapons, although back in the day. But if we want to boycott Tipple as has been mentioned then lets do that, after all that's fair. If we want to ban everything then lets not jump down Mike's throat. If we want to bag me because of Tipples behaviour and his legality in running Gun City, talk to the Police who allow that.

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#2200568 18-Mar-2019 09:24

I believe there has to be a major shift in public attitudes to avoid a repeat of this tragedy in the future. I think there has to be an end to tolerance of any form of racial and cultural prejudice. Every individual has to want to stand up against this kind of thing. Such behaviour must become so unacceptable that no-one even thinks about displaying it in public. Any hint of it must become utterly unacceptable.

Part of this change must also come from gun enthusiasts and those who make their living from them. I do not for a moment believe that everyone who enjoys guns or sells them is an irresponsible fanatic but fascists and weapons go together and if there is to be a real attitude shift, there must also be a change in thinking about gun ownership. Guns do not have to be banned altogether, but I think even responsible enthusiasts, like the one cited above, will have to accept that any 'good' that comes from having semi-automatic weapons available to the public, is greatly outweighed by their potential for harm.

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#2200589 18-Mar-2019 09:41

Rikkitic:

I believe there has to be a major shift in public attitudes to avoid a repeat of this tragedy in the future. I think there has to be an end to tolerance of any form of racial and cultural prejudice. Every individual has to want to stand up against this kind of thing. Such behaviour must become so unacceptable that no-one even thinks about displaying it in public. Any hint of it must become utterly unacceptable.

Part of this change must also come from gun enthusiasts and those who make their living from them. I do not for a moment believe that everyone who enjoys guns or sells them is an irresponsible fanatic but fascists and weapons go together and if there is to be a real attitude shift, there must also be a change in thinking about gun ownership. Guns do not have to be banned altogether, but I think even responsible enthusiasts, like the one cited above, will have to accept that any 'good' that comes from having semi-automatic weapons available to the public, is greatly outweighed by their potential for harm.

Agree 100%. I am sure the vast majority of owners feel the same way. You will find that dealers will disagree, that is the human way. Whenever anyone faces a removal of something they have or a change, they will defend, no matter what the topic. Dealers will do that. An association already has. The issue is about semi automatics and availability of certain accessories, none of which applies to sporting or competition. The Police have been happy with their stance on safety and background checks, home visits, etc, but now, that does need to step up a level

This is where we all need to step up and work together

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/111329032/terrorism-security-expert-chris-kumeroa-says-new-zealanders-need-to-be-alert-to-potential-threats

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#2200599 18-Mar-2019 09:53

NZ's biggest Gun show cancelled out of respect for the victims:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12213689

Great call.

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