Jacinda Ardern - our new PM

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#1963041 23-Feb-2018 15:37

networkn:

I'm amazed at the categorical stand Hipkins took of denying any chance of additional funding. Doesn't sound reasonable to me.

One moment you're arguing that the government throwing money at education doesn't work, next you're bleating when the government won't throw money at it.

Absolute genius.

FWIW the "hundreds of thousands" of extra resourcing claimed to be needed is absolute peanuts compared with the overall cost for administration, that high cost desperately needs to be brought under control and the systems reformed, as enrollment procedures at NZ tertiary institutions are a complete shambles - regardless of (and preceding) any effect from the fee-free scheme.

Starting off those reforms by throwing money at everybody who asks is not sending the right message.

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#1963111 23-Feb-2018 17:53

Fred99:
One moment you're arguing that the government throwing money at education doesn't work, next you're bleating when the government won't throw money at it.

Absolute genius.

FWIW the "hundreds of thousands" of extra resourcing claimed to be needed is absolute peanuts compared with the overall cost for administration, that high cost desperately needs to be brought under control and the systems reformed, as enrollment procedures at NZ tertiary institutions are a complete shambles - regardless of (and preceding) any effect from the fee-free scheme.

Starting off those reforms by throwing money at everybody who asks is not sending the right message.

To "throw" money implies reckless, impetuous spending with little thought or rationale.

You say:

Starting off those reforms by throwing money at everybody who asks is not sending the right message.

Starting off reforms by throwing money at people who DON'T ask is even more illogical. E.g. increases in student allowances

Fred99

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#1963116 23-Feb-2018 18:08

rjt123:
Fred99:

One moment you're arguing that the government throwing money at education doesn't work, next you're bleating when the government won't throw money at it.

Absolute genius.

FWIW the "hundreds of thousands" of extra resourcing claimed to be needed is absolute peanuts compared with the overall cost for administration, that high cost desperately needs to be brought under control and the systems reformed, as enrollment procedures at NZ tertiary institutions are a complete shambles - regardless of (and preceding) any effect from the fee-free scheme.

Starting off those reforms by throwing money at everybody who asks is not sending the right message.

To "throw" money implies reckless, impetuous spending with little thought or rationale.

You say:

Starting off those reforms by throwing money at everybody who asks is not sending the right message.

Starting off reforms by throwing money at people who DON'T ask is even more illogical. E.g. increases in student allowances

Haha - you're saying that students don't "ask" for lower fees.

You're living in an alternate universe.

I believe that getting rid of duplication, waste, and inefficiencies should recoup a significant amount of the cost of fee-free tertiary study. Don't forget that the fees for NZQA approved courses were only a % of total course delivery cost, the balance made up by the taxpayer. Save 10% on administration / fixed overheads, and you could have probably knocked 30% off all fees without the taxpayer paying an extra cent. Is that 10% saving possible? I don't know, but my guess is yes and more.

The system needs to be reviewed and overhauled. Lots of people will not like that - same as reform/restructure in any workplace.

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#1963153 23-Feb-2018 19:07

I said student allowances ( in reference to accommodation allowances increased by $50 a week in a surprise move by the government). I don't recall the student population clamouring for that.

Furthermore I don't recall a particular furore about reducing fees. Or can you enlighten me...?

For the most part the election was fought on child poverty and dirty water. I'd like to see them put their money where there mouth is.

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#1963216 23-Feb-2018 22:51

Fred99:

networkn:

I'm amazed at the categorical stand Hipkins took of denying any chance of additional funding. Doesn't sound reasonable to me.

One moment you're arguing that the government throwing money at education doesn't work, next you're bleating when the government won't throw money at it.

Absolute genius.

FWIW the "hundreds of thousands" of extra resourcing claimed to be needed is absolute peanuts compared with the overall cost for administration, that high cost desperately needs to be brought under control and the systems reformed, as enrollment procedures at NZ tertiary institutions are a complete shambles - regardless of (and preceding) any effect from the fee-free scheme.

Starting off those reforms by throwing money at everybody who asks is not sending the right message.

It's easy to jeer at someone when you are deliberately misrepresenting what they are saying. Typical.

I do not support "throwing money around" *in this manner*. I believe that it would be reasonable to have cheaper subsidized or even free fees, in your final year, or for each year that a student passes. If you bother to read what I have written many times in this thread, instead of just trying to be clever with pointless, incorrect (and rude) potshots, you'll see that I have made this point many times over.

I also predicted that the costs of administering this shoot from the hip, and vote buying policy, would cause organizations costs to rise, and there had been nothing mentioned in the policy of addressing it (see my comments about the GP's fees for another prime example).

YOU might think the costs are insignificant, but if I suddenly took money out of *your* income whilst asking you to work harder, I couldn't see you being thrilled.

No one suggested they "throw money at anyone who asks", but in my view, if you are going to go ahead with said stupid policy, the people doing the work, should be paid for it. At the very least, you don't come out and make a categorical statement you won't even consider 1 red cent. A reasonable approach is "we will hold conversations with the parties concerned and carefully consider the arguments". If the response is THEN no, at least you had the conversation.

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#1963218 23-Feb-2018 23:03

Fred99:

I believe that getting rid of duplication, waste, and inefficiencies should recoup a significant amount of the cost of fee-free tertiary study. Don't forget that the fees for NZQA approved courses were only a % of total course delivery cost, the balance made up by the taxpayer. Save 10% on administration / fixed overheads, and you could have probably knocked 30% off all fees without the taxpayer paying an extra cent. Is that 10% saving possible? I don't know, but my guess is yes and more.

The system needs to be reviewed and overhauled. Lots of people will not like that - same as reform/restructure in any workplace.

Labour has never been a Government to focus on efficiency in bureaucracy in my opinion. I don't disagree there is a LOT of waste in education (at every level) but in my experience, efforts to reduce this are usually false economy because the cost of implementing it, is usually very high, and by the fact it's a large bureaucracy, it will slip backwards quite quickly. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but being realistic about improvements is important.

Healthcare there is a huge amount of waste, yet resources (Doctors and nurses, Hospital beds) etc are stretched to capacity. Often to improve efficiency, you need to spend a lot more upfront. it requires buy in from the affected parties. Chances of this is low.

I'd like to see operating theatres operating at least another 3-4 hours a day, a few well experienced overseas administrators I have spoken to believe it's entirely possible to operate 24/7 in some of our hospitals and clear the waiting lists. Neither National nor Labour would have a bar of it.

So it's clear, my primary issue with the new education policy of free fees. is that I don't see a significant number of the people taking advantage of this, finishing their qualifications and going on to work in NZ. I feel it much more likely that as a result of not having to pay for it, people won't value it. As a result, enrollments will increase, course completion stats will fall. I am not entirely sure what the numbers will be, but I expect them to be disappointing. If someone can find stats of course completion rates now, if the pass rates RISE as a percentage of total enrollments, I'll make a $50 donation to a registered charity of fred99's choosing.

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#1963229 23-Feb-2018 23:37

networkn:

Fred99:

I believe that getting rid of duplication, waste, and inefficiencies should recoup a significant amount of the cost of fee-free tertiary study. Don't forget that the fees for NZQA approved courses were only a % of total course delivery cost, the balance made up by the taxpayer. Save 10% on administration / fixed overheads, and you could have probably knocked 30% off all fees without the taxpayer paying an extra cent. Is that 10% saving possible? I don't know, but my guess is yes and more.

The system needs to be reviewed and overhauled. Lots of people will not like that - same as reform/restructure in any workplace.

Labour has never been a Government to focus on efficiency in bureaucracy in my opinion. I don't disagree there is a LOT of waste in education (at every level) but in my experience, efforts to reduce this are usually false economy because the cost of implementing it, is usually very high, and by the fact it's a large bureaucracy, it will slip backwards quite quickly. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but being realistic about improvements is important.

Healthcare there is a huge amount of waste, yet resources (Doctors and nurses, Hospital beds) etc are stretched to capacity. Often to improve efficiency, you need to spend a lot more upfront. it requires buy in from the affected parties. Chances of this is low.

I'd like to see operating theatres operating at least another 3-4 hours a day, a few well experienced overseas administrators I have spoken to believe it's entirely possible to operate 24/7 in some of our hospitals and clear the waiting lists. Neither National nor Labour would have a bar of it.

So it's clear, my primary issue with the new education policy of free fees. is that I don't see a significant number of the people taking advantage of this, finishing their qualifications and going on to work in NZ. I feel it much more likely that as a result of not having to pay for it, people won't value it. As a result, enrollments will increase, course completion stats will fall. I am not entirely sure what the numbers will be, but I expect them to be disappointing. If someone can find stats of course completion rates now, if the rates drop RISE as a percentage of total enrollments, I'll make a $50 donation to a registered charity of fred99's choosing.

Sidebar, your Honour.

This Kiwi expression "have a bar of it". A bar of what, please? Soap? Gold?

The expression isn't used in the UK (NZ and Australia only I think) and I am curious as to the origin/meaning.

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#1963333 24-Feb-2018 10:49

I note also two stories in the press about relaxing immigration controls on construction workers to build all these houses and on care home workers.

Would love to be a fly on the wall when Winston is fulminating about that in Cabinet!

bmt

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#1963491 24-Feb-2018 15:13

Are you referring to the "KiwiBuild Visa" which was clearly communicated before the election and would have been well known about as a policy position in post-election negotiations..?

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#1964017 25-Feb-2018 19:32

bmt:

Are you referring to the "KiwiBuild Visa" which was clearly communicated before the election and would have been well known about as a policy position in post-election negotiations..?

Interesting you consider it clearly communicated. I felt pretty connected during the election lead up, and felt I had a pretty good grasp on the policies overall, however that was the first time I've heard of it.

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#1964147 25-Feb-2018 23:09

bmt:

Are you referring to the "KiwiBuild Visa" which was clearly communicated before the election and would have been well known about as a policy position in post-election negotiations..?

No, because like @networkn I had never heard of that. All I heard in the election was Winston telling us all we did not need immigrants because all these New Zealanders were without work and would be stepping up. Sounded like a Tui ad to me, but there we are.

So far since then I have heard pleas for immigrant labour from builders, farmers, care home workers, hospitality, tourism and business in general.

I've not heard a great deal from Mr Peters, however.

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#1964154 25-Feb-2018 23:36

Geektastic:

I've not heard a great deal from Mr Peters, however.

And even with his mouth shut his party will be unlikely to survive this coalition. Imagine if he actually said anything!

In my view, the only good WP is a silent one.

Fred99

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#1964229 26-Feb-2018 09:15

networkn:

bmt:

Are you referring to the "KiwiBuild Visa" which was clearly communicated before the election and would have been well known about as a policy position in post-election negotiations..?

Interesting you consider it clearly communicated. I felt pretty connected during the election lead up, and felt I had a pretty good grasp on the policies overall, however that was the first time I've heard of it.

So - clearly you didn't.

Fred99

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#1964231 26-Feb-2018 09:16

networkn:

In my view, the only good WP is a silent one.

Angry much?

rjt123

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#1964275 26-Feb-2018 09:23

Fred99:
networkn:

In my view, the only good WP is a silent one.

Angry much?

If global warming is an issue then the less hot air from him the better.

Or maybe he's feeling red-faced because his prophetic economic downturn hasn't eventuated.

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