Red Peak to be added as a 5th option on the referendum

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#1398654 2-Oct-2015 12:12

Paul1977:

I think those screaming that Red Peak should not have been included are just as vocal a minority. As many have pointed out; if people don't want it, they won't vote for it.

The only reason to be upset about it's inclusion is if you think it might win, and if it is popular enough that it might win then it should be included.

It's going to be interesting to see exactly who was the actual minority when the vote comes back.

DizzyD

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#1398656 2-Oct-2015 12:24

Everybody should have been given the opportunity to vote for their favorite flag or the current flag (1 referendum).

Not choose from a list of 4 (which became 5).

The process like it is will never get the result of a flag change. Chances are, those that dislike the flag that wins the first referendum, will just end up voting for the current flag.

I did think the Redpeak was probably the better of a bad bunch, But it lost any of my support once the greens got behind it.

Paul1977

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#1398658 2-Oct-2015 12:25

DravidDavid:
Paul1977:

I think those screaming that Red Peak should not have been included are just as vocal a minority. As many have pointed out; if people don't want it, they won't vote for it.

The only reason to be upset about it's inclusion is if you think it might win, and if it is popular enough that it might win then it should be included.

It's going to be interesting to see exactly who was the actual minority when the vote comes back.

I'd like to know how the ranking system will work; imagine this:

The 1 votes give Red Peak 24% and the others 19% each; the 2 votes give Hypnoflag 80% and the others 5% each; the 3,4, & 5 votes are split evenly. Do we end up with Read Peak or Hypnoflag?

Paul1977

5042 posts

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#1398671 2-Oct-2015 12:29

DizzyD: Everybody should have been given the opportunity to vote for their favorite flag or the current flag (1 referendum).

Not choose from a list of 4 (which became 5).

The process like it is will never get the result of a flag change. Chances are, those that dislike the flag that wins the first referendum, will just end up voting for the current flag.

I did think the Redpeak was probably the better of a bad bunch, But it lost any of my support once the greens got behind it.

But if they included the entire long list of 40 and you just voted for the one you liked, you could potentially end up with a flag that got less than 3% of the vote.

Why rule a flag out just because a political party you don't support likes it?

old3eyes

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#1398681 2-Oct-2015 12:45

Rikkitic:
jarledb: Although it has a symbol, the Canadian flag is a very clean flag design, much like the Red Peak, and not at all like the current New Zealand flag, or the other proposed flags.

BTW the Canadian flag, is this what you guys would want?

An obese kiwi. What a perfect image to capture the true essence of modern New Zealand! Let's start a Facebook campaign to get it included.

Agreed. I quite like it.. But the Red Peak fans here won't..

Regards,

Old3eyes

Paul1977

5042 posts

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#1398682 2-Oct-2015 12:46

Paul1977:
DravidDavid:
Paul1977:

I think those screaming that Red Peak should not have been included are just as vocal a minority. As many have pointed out; if people don't want it, they won't vote for it.

The only reason to be upset about it's inclusion is if you think it might win, and if it is popular enough that it might win then it should be included.

It's going to be interesting to see exactly who was the actual minority when the vote comes back.

I'd like to know how the ranking system will work; imagine this:

The 1 votes give Red Peak 24% and the others 19% each; the 2 votes give Hypnoflag 80% and the others 5% each; the 3,4, & 5 votes are split evenly. Do we end up with Read Peak or Hypnoflag?

In fact the more I think about this, the more rigged it seems:

I think it's safe to say that it will really be between Red Peak and one of the Kyle Lockwood designs (there is no real support for the other 2). Anyone who ranks a Kyle Lockwood design as number 1 will almost certainly rank the other Kyle Lockwood design as number 2. Surely this almost guarantees that one of the Lockwood designs will go up against the current flag, regardless of the fact that Red Peak may get the most 1 votes.

DizzyD

523 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user

#1398687 2-Oct-2015 12:50

Paul1977:
DizzyD: Everybody should have been given the opportunity to vote for their favorite flag or the current flag (1 referendum).

Not choose from a list of 4 (which became 5).

The process like it is will never get the result of a flag change. Chances are, those that dislike the flag that wins the first referendum, will just end up voting for the current flag.

I did think the Redpeak was probably the better of a bad bunch, But it lost any of my support once the greens got behind it.

But if they included the entire long list of 40 and you just voted for the one you liked, you could potentially end up with a flag that got less than 3% of the vote.

Why rule a flag out just because a political party you don't support likes it?

Or we could end up with the current flag that gets only 3% of the votes.

Its how the greens got behind the flag, and bulldozed it in that I don't like.
Why redpeak? There were other flags that were more popular than redpeak. Why did they not get behind those other more popular ones? This just affirms my stance on the greens. Now its their flag, and I definitely won't be voting for it.

The fact that redpeak is now part of the 5 is silly. Democratically it should not be there.

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Paul1977

5042 posts

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#1398688 2-Oct-2015 12:53

old3eyes:
Rikkitic:
jarledb: Although it has a symbol, the Canadian flag is a very clean flag design, much like the Red Peak, and not at all like the current New Zealand flag, or the other proposed flags.

BTW the Canadian flag, is this what you guys would want?

An obese kiwi. What a perfect image to capture the true essence of modern New Zealand! Let's start a Facebook campaign to get it included.

Agreed. I quite like it.. But the Red Peak fans here won't..

I like Red Peak, but I don't mind this one. Obviously it is too similar to Canada in red, but in other colours I could get behind this.

OK.... maybe not brown and green....

Paul1977

5042 posts

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#1398692 2-Oct-2015 12:59

DizzyD: The fact that redpeak is now part of the 5 is silly. Democratically it should not be there.

It was included due to public pressure. Vocal minority or not, that is still more democratic than why the others were included.

DizzyD

523 posts

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#1398704 2-Oct-2015 13:12

Paul1977:
DizzyD: The fact that redpeak is now part of the 5 is silly. Democratically it should not be there.

It was included due to public pressure. Vocal minority or not, that is still more democratic than why the others were included.

What rubbish.

Thats not democratic at all.
Democracy is all about the "ALL", not a vocal minority, or those that make the most noise.

There were other flags which more people favored to redpeak. They are not part of the referendum. Instead, the less popular redpeak is.

Good old saying come to mind, "An Empty Barrel makes the most noise". I guess as somebody else mentioned earlier, the results will speak for themselves.

jarledb

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#1398725 2-Oct-2015 13:16

n4:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11522272

"He told the station Americans and Canadians would never change their flags. The Canadian star was apparently unaware that Canada changed its flag to the iconic maple leaf design in 1965. Previously, its flag - like New Zealand's - had featured a Union Jack in the top-left corner."

Yeah, I agree. They should never have changed their flag, eh, wait what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Canada#Flags_used_in_Canada_from_1497_to_the_present

Canada had a few flags up until 1965. I think the one they have now is a lot better than the previous ones.

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Paul1977

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#1398726 2-Oct-2015 13:17

DizzyD:
Paul1977:
DizzyD: The fact that redpeak is now part of the 5 is silly. Democratically it should not be there.

It was included due to public pressure. Vocal minority or not, that is still more democratic than why the others were included.

What rubbish.

Thats not democratic at all.
Democracy is all about the "ALL", not a vocal minority, or those that make the most noise.

There were other flags which more people favored to redpeak. They are not part of the referendum. Instead, the less popular redpeak is.

Good old saying come to mind, "An Empty Barrel makes the most noise". I guess as somebody else mentioned earlier, the results will speak for themselves.

I didn't mean to imply that it was a good example of democracy, just that it was MORE democratic than a government picked committee.

DizzyD

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#1398727 2-Oct-2015 13:18

Paul1977:
I think it's safe to say that it will really be between Red Peak and one of the Kyle Lockwood designs (there is no real support for the other 2). Anyone who ranks a Kyle Lockwood design as number 1 will almost certainly rank the other Kyle Lockwood design as number 2. Surely this almost guarantees that one of the Lockwood designs will go up against the current flag, regardless of the fact that Red Peak may get the most 1 votes.

Since redpeak entered the scene I think there is actually even more support for the other two.

First referendum I will be voting for the least most favorable. The koru flag ;-)
Second referendum, current flag.

Paul1977

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#1398730 2-Oct-2015 13:20

DizzyD:
Since redpeak entered the scene I think there is actually even more support for the other two.

My sample size is pretty much limited to people I know, so probably a relatively high margin of error.

jarledb

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#1398732 2-Oct-2015 13:23

DizzyD:
Thats not democratic at all.
Democracy is all about the "ALL", not a vocal minority, or those that make the most noise.

So where does democracy work like that? If it did, we would all have to participate in all the votes that the parliament goes through each year.

We have a representative democracy in New Zealand.

If you for a second think that day to day dealings in this democracy is not influenced by interest groups, then you need to wake up right now.

That said, the process of electing a flag, while not 100% pure democratic (since a selected group picked the 4, and then an interest group picked a 5th), will be democratic in its process to figure out if New Zealanders want to change the flag or not, because everyone will get to vote on it.

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