White Island eruption

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Networkn
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#2374576 13-Dec-2019 09:42

dafman:

networkn:

Can someone explain to me, why they wouldn't wait till the status dropped to 1? Surely, overall, the risk is much less at 1 than 2, or 3?

It feels like "pressure" has meant they are heading out there earlier than they would, if the pressure wasn't being applied.

The status may not change for days/weeks/years.

They are operating in the shadow of Pike River.

They will get in and out quickly and the affected families can begin closure.

It's unfortunate that may be the case, but they are dead and nothing will change that.

Pike River shouldn't be brought into this, either it's safe to go and get them, or it's not. Who will bear responsibility if someone is hurt or killed during the recovery?

I am sure they probably will get in and out quickly, probably no-one will get hurt, but it's more a case of should they have done this if the risk is higher than at another time.

Just because they CAN get them off the Island right now, doesn't mean they should.

Mahon

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#2374577 13-Dec-2019 09:43

networkn:

Can someone explain to me, why they wouldn't wait till the status dropped to 1? Surely, overall, the risk is much less at 1 than 2, or 3?

It feels like "pressure" has meant they are heading out there earlier than they would, if the pressure wasn't being applied.

The bodies would not be recoverable if left too much longer as they are covered in volcanic debris and the acidic nature of the air would substantially hasten decomposition.

networkn

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#2374581 13-Dec-2019 09:52

Mahon:

networkn:

Can someone explain to me, why they wouldn't wait till the status dropped to 1? Surely, overall, the risk is much less at 1 than 2, or 3?

It feels like "pressure" has meant they are heading out there earlier than they would, if the pressure wasn't being applied.

The bodies would not be recoverable if left too much longer as they are covered in volcanic debris and the acidic nature of the air would substantially hasten decomposition.

That's most unfortunate. Adding more bodies to the Island would make the whole thing so much worse don't you think?

The reality is that it's quite unlikely someone would die or be badly injured, but I am sure we all thought a similar thing about the tours themselves a week ago.

Just because they CAN, doesn't mean they SHOULD.

It's emotion over logic.

Rikkitic

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#2374589 13-Dec-2019 10:10

networkn:

Just because they CAN, doesn't mean they SHOULD.

It's emotion over logic.

I don't want to become embroiled in this discussion, but I respectfully disagree with you on this. You expressed a similar sentiment in regard to Pike River.

Emotion sometimes results in acts of heroism and self-sacrifice that change the course of history. Emotion is the basis of real patriotism. Emotion is the difference between human sensibility and the cold logic of a thinking machine. There are definitely times when emotion should rule over logic. Otherwise we might as well be unfeeling robots.

I am speaking here of the principle. I am not suggesting that recovering the bodies from White Island is an instance in which emotion should be allowed to rule. I don't know enough to be able to make that kind of judgement. But saying that emotion should never be allowed to rule over logic is incorrect. If people actually worked that way, no-one would ever come from behind to score an unexpected win in a sports competition. Emotion is a legitimate and important aspect of humanness. It is a big part of what defines us as human.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

MikeB4

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#2374600 13-Dec-2019 10:19

Soldiers take great risk to recover fallen comrades. The US marines leave no man behind for example. My sons always said they would not think twice to do so. This was exampled by the actions of the rescue pilots and clear again today. I hope all goes safely and the loved ones are returned to those waiting. Kia kaha.

tdgeek

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#2374603 13-Dec-2019 10:25

networkn:

Mahon:

networkn:

Can someone explain to me, why they wouldn't wait till the status dropped to 1? Surely, overall, the risk is much less at 1 than 2, or 3?

It feels like "pressure" has meant they are heading out there earlier than they would, if the pressure wasn't being applied.

The bodies would not be recoverable if left too much longer as they are covered in volcanic debris and the acidic nature of the air would substantially hasten decomposition.

That's most unfortunate. Adding more bodies to the Island would make the whole thing so much worse don't you think?

The reality is that it's quite unlikely someone would die or be badly injured, but I am sure we all thought a similar thing about the tours themselves a week ago.

Just because they CAN, doesn't mean they SHOULD.

It's emotion over logic.

I wouldn't say highly unlikely. 50-60% to erupt in 24 hours. They may be there for a few hours? Well, its been 5 already. I'd say its high risk, it can go at any time, or not at all. Its highly unstable right now.

tdgeek

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#2374604 13-Dec-2019 10:27

Police say another couple of hours to go

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networkn

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#2374605 13-Dec-2019 10:28

Rikkitic:

networkn:

Just because they CAN, doesn't mean they SHOULD.

It's emotion over logic.

I don't want to become embroiled in this discussion, but I respectfully disagree with you on this. You expressed a similar sentiment in regard to Pike River.

Emotion sometimes results in acts of heroism and self-sacrifice that change the course of history. Emotion is the basis of real patriotism. Emotion is the difference between human sensibility and the cold logic of a thinking machine. There are definitely times when emotion should rule over logic. Otherwise we might as well be unfeeling robots.

I am speaking here of the principle. I am not suggesting that recovering the bodies from White Island is an instance in which emotion should be allowed to rule. I don't know enough to be able to make that kind of judgement. But saying that emotion should never be allowed to rule over logic is incorrect. If people actually worked that way, no-one would ever come from behind to score an unexpected win in a sports competition. Emotion is a legitimate and important aspect of humanness. It is a big part of what defines us as human.

I am a great proponent of emotion, where appropriate. Of course emotions are what sets us apart, and I don't suggest we should be without it.

If there was ANY chance of those people being alive, then I would support moving heaven and earth to do it. I 100% supported the rescue of the kids in the Thai caves, and that was a triumph of human determination, innovation, selflessness and absolute bravery. In my opinion, the people involved in that rescue should well and truly have been Time Magazine's person of the year. It is worth noting, however, that one person died helping with that rescue. In the balance, I think most people would say it was probably a worthwhile price to pay (which sounds terrible actually when I put it down in writing). It was an absoloute MIRACLE that more people didn't die.

There is a huge difference between that, and this.

networkn

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#2374608 13-Dec-2019 10:29

tdgeek:

I wouldn't say highly unlikely. 50-60% to erupt in 24 hours. They may be there for a few hours? Well, its been 5 already. I'd say its high risk, it can go at any time, or not at all. Its highly unstable right now.

Well, you know my position on this. They shouldn't be there at all while the Island is in this state.

If they come back mostly unharmed, people will use the incorrect logic, that it was worth it, and the right thing to do. I will never agree with that. It's hard. It's cold, but it's the truth.

MikeB4

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#2374610 13-Dec-2019 10:35

networkn:

tdgeek:

I wouldn't say highly unlikely. 50-60% to erupt in 24 hours. They may be there for a few hours? Well, its been 5 already. I'd say its high risk, it can go at any time, or not at all. Its highly unstable right now.

Well, you know my position on this. They should be there at all while the Island is in this state.

If they come back mostly unharmed, people will use the incorrect logic, that it was worth it, and the right thing to do. I will never agree with that. It's hard. It's cold, but it's the truth.

The difference between a compassionate society or one that is not. I know what society I want to live in. The incorrect logic argument is a load of BS.

GV27

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#2374612 13-Dec-2019 10:36

MikeB4:

The difference between a compassionate society or one that is not. I know what society I want to live in. The incorrect logic argument is a load of BS.

Funny, I consider it compassionate to not demand others be sent possibly to their deaths when there are absolutely no lives at stake. It's a two way street.

networkn

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#2374613 13-Dec-2019 10:44

MikeB4:

The difference between a compassionate society or one that is not. I know what society I want to live in. The incorrect logic argument is a load of BS.

Nonsense. You are saying the way to be compassionate is to put people in harms way. There are MANY other ways to show compassion, most of them considerably more useful.

It's possible to be compassionate AND logical, both at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.

dafman

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#2374614 13-Dec-2019 10:47

networkn:

tdgeek:

I wouldn't say highly unlikely. 50-60% to erupt in 24 hours. They may be there for a few hours? Well, its been 5 already. I'd say its high risk, it can go at any time, or not at all. Its highly unstable right now.

Well, you know my position on this. They should be there at all while the Island is in this state.

If they come back mostly unharmed, people will use the incorrect logic, that it was worth it, and the right thing to do. I will never agree with that. It's hard. It's cold, but it's the truth.

Your logic, your truth. No less relevant than others, but not universally shared.

In the aftermath of this terrible tragedy, there is understandably a range of views as to what are the right next steps. In the end, its a judgement call that has to be made.

And the judgement call they made is one I personally support.

MikeB4

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#2374616 13-Dec-2019 10:50

networkn:
MikeB4:

The difference between a compassionate society or one that is not. I know what society I want to live in. The incorrect logic argument is a load of BS.

Nonsense. You are saying the way to be compassionate is to put people in harms way. There are MANY other ways to show compassion, most of them considerably more useful.

It's possible to be compassionate AND logical, both at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.

You are assuming that the police and SAR folk are there against their will. From the ones that I have met over the years they would not hesitate.

Ge0rge

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#2374619 13-Dec-2019 10:57

MikeB4:
networkn:
MikeB4:

The difference between a compassionate society or one that is not. I know what society I want to live in. The incorrect logic argument is a load of BS.

Nonsense. You are saying the way to be compassionate is to put people in harms way. There are MANY other ways to show compassion, most of them considerably more useful.

It's possible to be compassionate AND logical, both at the same time. It's not mutually exclusive.

You are assuming that the police and SAR folk are there against their will. From the ones that I have met over the years they would not hesitate.

Which would be a valid point Mike, if it were indeed Police and SAR personnel on the island risking their lives.

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