The Evil that is ISIS

Forums › Off topic › The Evil that is ISIS

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | ... | 14

5052 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#1241615 18-Feb-2015 13:40

Geektastic: The UN should be running the world on the basis that there are Rules. If you break the rules and won't cease after reasonable requests, you should be 'cut off' for the good of the remainder.

But the UN doesn't run the world and UN member nations can't and shouldn't have their sovereignty overruled. They can deplore the actions of a member nation but can't compel then to comply with demands. If a sovereign nation asks for our help we should consider it, but if they don't, we really have no right to be there and showing up is an invasion, which is certainly how many in those nations see it.

Twitter: ajobbins

Glassboy

850 posts

Ultimate Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1241616 18-Feb-2015 13:41

jonb:

Remember the reason ISIS exists is because we (as in Western world and including us with US and Europe) went in and toppled the existing power structure. Gaddafi, Saddam and Assad were doing a decent job in that respect. Syria is more complicated as the Gulf states were the major destabilisers, our friend and ally Saudi Arabia especially likes supporting fundamentalist Sunni fighters overseas.

I think that's a myopic view. The reason that ISIS exists is exactly the same reason that there was a second world war (WWII) and modern wars in Afghanistan, and the Balkans. Not to mention the three or so wars between India and Pakistan. We are still feeling the effects of the Treaty of Versailles and the partitioning of the Ottoman empire.

I also think it's only going to get worse if "the West" interferes in what was the old Russian Empire.

Glassboy

850 posts

Ultimate Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1241617 18-Feb-2015 13:44

Geektastic:

I view it more holistically. The world is a body and things like IS are gangrene. Doctors cut gangrenous limbs off to save the whole.

The UN should be running the world on the basis that there are Rules. If you break the rules and won't cease after reasonable requests, you should be 'cut off' for the good of the remainder.

If you viewed it more historically then you might view the UN as the disease, not the cure.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1241620 18-Feb-2015 13:44

ajobbins:
networkn: I disagree entirely with your premise that we shouldn't participate for fear of becoming a target. This is cowardice of the highest order as a country.Why is it ok for us to let our allys become a target and us reap the benefit without participation? I am fairly anti violence but I believe diplomacy would have
no effect here and allowing it to discontinue seems unacceptable to me.

I'm not necessarily saying we shouldn't do something. I'm just making the point that when we do do something, there is a consequence of us becoming more likely to be targeted.

We are already targets. That is one reason I would like to see the bulk of our combat trained members of the Defence Force to remain in NZ. We have World class Special Forces we can send as long as we spend the money to give them the materials of war they will need and not expect them to self fund or steal.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1241637 18-Feb-2015 13:46

Glassboy:
Geektastic:

I view it more holistically. The world is a body and things like IS are gangrene. Doctors cut gangrenous limbs off to save the whole.

The UN should be running the world on the basis that there are Rules. If you break the rules and won't cease after reasonable requests, you should be 'cut off' for the good of the remainder.

If you viewed it more historically then you might view the UN as the disease, not the cure.

The UN is useless at best it will send a letter, a well written strong letter, but a letter.

networkn

Networkn
32351 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1241638 18-Feb-2015 13:46

Joker: Beheadings are not an issue if they are legal and part of a countries laws and constitutions. The reason for this is so that people know what is expected of them and then it's their choice to break the rules and end up with no head. When 3rd parties take it upon themselves to execute people in this manner without the support of the government it is an issue.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
18660 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1241649 18-Feb-2015 13:56

I don’t have any answers here, just emotion-based opinion. After Paris and Copenhagen, I do feel it is important to make a public stand so I would like to add my voice and say I believe those who commit atrocities for any reason are cowards and hypocrites, as well as mentally and morally deficient. Fanaticism in the name of religious belief just makes it worse.

I am strongly opposed to all censorship as a matter of principle, and when the media here say they won’t show something because it is ‘too graphic’, I usually make a point of looking it up because I refuse to allow someone else to decide what I am permitted to see. When the first beheadings occurred, I started to do the same but then I stopped myself. I decided not to look at any of these or the latest executions because these are the very last moments of someone’s life and I feel the least I can do is give those poor people the dignity of looking away. I can’t control what the murderers do, or prevent other people from watching, but I can take responsibility for my own actions and I know these despicable videos are posted because the criminals want people to see them so I refuse to look. It is my small act of defiance.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Sharesies kids

Free kids accounts - trade shares and funds (NZ, US) with Sharesies (affiliate link).

networkn

Networkn
32351 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1241650 18-Feb-2015 13:59

Rikkitic: I don’t have any answers here, just emotion-based opinion. After Paris and Copenhagen, I do feel it is important to make a public stand so I would like to add my voice and say I believe those who commit atrocities for any reason are cowards and hypocrites, as well as mentally and morally deficient. Fanaticism in the name of religious belief just makes it worse.

I am strongly opposed to all censorship as a matter of principle, and when the media here say they won’t show something because it is ‘too graphic’, I usually make a point of looking it up because I refuse to allow someone else to decide what I am permitted to see. When the first beheadings occurred, I started to do the same but then I stopped myself. I decided not to look at any of these or the latest executions because these are the very last moments of someone’s life and I feel the least I can do is give those poor people the dignity of looking away. I can’t control what the murderers do, or prevent other people from watching, but I can take responsibility for my own actions and I know these despicable videos are posted because the criminals want people to see them so I refuse to look. It is my small act of defiance.

I have a weak stomach and actively object to stuff.co.nz and nzherald showing injuries sustained by people for various reasons.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
18660 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1241659 18-Feb-2015 14:11

networkn:

I have a weak stomach and actively object to stuff.co.nz and nzherald showing injuries sustained by people for various reasons.

You can look away. That is a choice. When you say I know something but I am not going to let you see it, you are removing the choice.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

networkn

Networkn
32351 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1241666 18-Feb-2015 14:16

Rikkitic:
networkn:

I have a weak stomach and actively object to stuff.co.nz and nzherald showing injuries sustained by people for various reasons.

You can look away. That is a choice. When you say I know something but I am not going to let you see it, you are removing the choice.

If it's on the front page, you will see it before you have had a chance to register. By all means put the photos on the article, behind a warning.

MikeB4

18435 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#1241674 18-Feb-2015 14:30

Rikkitic:
networkn:

I have a weak stomach and actively object to stuff.co.nz and nzherald showing injuries sustained by people for various reasons.

You can look away. That is a choice. When you say I know something but I am not going to let you see it, you are removing the choice.

I am not interested in Voyeurism.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
18660 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#1241678 18-Feb-2015 14:38

KiwiNZ:

I am not interested in Voyeurism.

Neither am I. That's why I refuse to look at beheading videos. What I am interested in is being able to make my own choices.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

geekiegeek

2513 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#1241707 18-Feb-2015 15:22

I made the mistake of watching one of the first beheading videos from Iraq many years ago - it haunts me to this day and I wish I had never watched it. Many people will not realize how such imagery may affect them so I can fully understand the reason for not showing the videos. Plus if you really want to see them I'm sure you can find them.

As far as NZ supporting the fight against ISIS, I fully support this even in a limited capacity as its not just about the impact we have on the ground but also about showing that we stand with the rest of the world and act as good global citizens.

Geektastic

17943 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#1241777 18-Feb-2015 16:02

ajobbins:
Geektastic: The UN should be running the world on the basis that there are Rules. If you break the rules and won't cease after reasonable requests, you should be 'cut off' for the good of the remainder.

But the UN doesn't run the world and UN member nations can't and shouldn't have their sovereignty overruled. They can deplore the actions of a member nation but can't compel then to comply with demands. If a sovereign nation asks for our help we should consider it, but if they don't, we really have no right to be there and showing up is an invasion, which is certainly how many in those nations see it.

I don't really agree that sovereignty should not be overturned in the greater good.

blakamin

4431 posts

Uber Geek
Inactive user

#1241780 18-Feb-2015 16:07

Geektastic:

I don't really agree that sovereignty should not be overturned in the greater good.

What constitutes the "greater good" (bearing in mind your reply to the other thread where you think the Empire should still be running Africa)?

Oil, Diamonds??

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | ... | 14